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#1
09-17-2008, 05:52 PM
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Navy chaplains want right to carry weapons
Navy chaplains want right to carry weapons to protect themselves against the Taliban
by MATTHEW HICKLEY Last updated at 17:57 18 December 2007 Debate: Revd Stuart Hallam, Royal Navy Chaplain, says the issue of carrying guns is ' a debate that needs resolving' British military chaplains in Afghanistan are urging an historic change in the rules to allow them to carry weapons when out on patrol alongside troops fighting the Taliban, because of the risk of capture. For the first time in any theatre of conflict chaplains are no longer considered to be protected by the rules of war, because of the propaganda Taliban extremists would gain from showing "trophy" footage of a captive Christian priest. By long tradition, clergy serving in Britain's armed forces have not carried weapons in war-zones, but now some Royal Navy Commando chaplains want to be allowed to carry a side-arm, stating that as a last resort they would rather take their own life than fall into the hands of the Taliban. The issue has sparked an intense debate within the chaplain community, where some oppose the move on principle. Under the Geneva Convention all military chaplains are 'non-combatants' and are granted certain protections if taken prisoner, but in Afghanistan such rules are irrelevant since the Taliban pay no heed to international law or the Convention. UK forces in Afghanistan have already stopped observing one requirement of the Geneva Convention, as for the first time both chaplains and frontline medics have abandoned their traditional Red Cross arm bands when out in the field. The assessment by commanders is that far from enjoying any protection, anyone wearing the Red Cross would be at greater risk from the enemy. So far the firearms debate only involves Royal Navy Commando chaplains who minister to the Royal Marines, currently fighting and working to build security in southern Afghanistan. Commando chaplains routinely visit forward operating bases to conduct services and offer pastoral support, and unlike most of their Army counterparts they also join troops on patrols in order to share and understand their experiences. Uniquely among military clergy they have all completed the same training as their "flock" - in this case the gruelling 32-week Commando training course - enabling them to live and work on the frontline without being a burden to the men or their commanders. Without Red Cross armbands they are now indistinguishable within a group of Marines, wearing identical uniform, body armour and helmets. During training they are taught to handle and fire SA-80 assault rifles and pistols, because as trained first-aiders they are allowed to use a wounded Marine's own weapon to protect him on a battlefield. But now some chaplains are pressing for the rules barring them from carrying their own personal weapon to be relaxed - specifically within Afghanistan, because of the nature of the enemy - giving them the discretion to take a sidearm on patrol. There are about a dozen chaplains in Afghanistan. The Revd Stuart Hallam, (Church of England) Royal Navy Chaplain to 40 Commando, currently serving in Afghanistan, is one of those in favour. He told the Mail: "For the first time in any theatre of war we are seen as a legitimate target by the enemy. "We are already effectively breaking the Geneva Convention by not wearing red arm bands. Maybe we're passed gentlemen's agreements, and have to re-think the way we go about our ministry in this kind of conflict. "The Convention itself doesn't actually prohibit us from carrying a weapon, but long tradition and UK military rules do, and the issue has divided the chaplain community. "For Commando chaplains our ethos is that to serve our people we have to be able to go through what they go through, which includes patrolling on the ground. "In theory if we're captured in war we are supposed to be allowed to go about our ministry among prisoners. But that's a very long way from the reality in Afghanistan." He added: "It's very unlikely we could be captured here, but if we were, the Taliban may well use us for publicity, and then probably execute us - just as they probably would any other coalition serviceman. "I don't think I could put my wife through that. I personally would not want to let myself be captured. "For that reason I think we should be pragmatic over sidearms. None of us are comfortable with this, and there are those who think it's going too far. "But it's a debate which needs resolving, because of the kind of operations the Royal Marines are carrying out and are likely to in the years ahead." Monsignor Paul Donovan, (Roman Catholic) Director of the Naval Chaplaincy Service (Operations), said: "The Chaplain on the ground needs to make the judgement whether the Red Cross symbol, which is meant to afford protection under the Geneva Convention, instead stands him in greater danger. "Whilst some other nations do arm their chaplains as a matter of course, current British practice is not to." Military chaplains - commonly known as Padres - have a proud history of supporting Britain's frontline forces often at great personal risk, and some have been decorated for extreme valour in helping wounded troops under fire. In World War Two 134 British and Commonwealth Padres were killed, and chaplains followed the troops ashore on D-Day and jumped with Paratroopers behind enemy lines. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Link to the story is here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...t-Taliban.html 
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#2
09-20-2008, 10:33 PM
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I agree! I can tell you that the enemy we are fighting today would love nothing more than to bag one of our religious leaders. For them, this is a Jihad(Holy War). It would be seen as some sort of divine victory...
It is not like the Geneva Convention is of any use this go around. I feel that if they so desire and go through the proper qualification courses, they should be allowed to carry a PDW(Personal Defense Weapon).
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#3
09-20-2008, 11:04 PM
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There's no such thing as a noncombatant over there...and a dead Chaplain (especially a Christian one) is worth more than a dead General. I agree with you, Paul.
__________________
“Men of integrity, by their very existence, rekindle the belief that as a people we can live above the level of moral squalor. We need that belief; a cynical community is a corrupt community.” - John W. Gardner
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#4
09-21-2008, 07:48 AM
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Gentlemen,
I have to say NO on this one. At least in the USAF there are positions called Chaplain Assistants. These folks are enlisted, assigned to protect and to serve the Chaplain and to perform duties inside the Chapels. They are the one's that are ARMED and are there to protect the Chaplain. I had thought at one time this was part of the rules of the Geneva Convention, and I WILL look that up. I looked into this late in my career just before I made E-7 and before I went on to become a First Sergeant. I felt called to that position, but age and rank kept me from considering it. I might have been able to get a waiver for the rank, but that puts you into a position that at the 20-year mark it makes it too easy to get bounced out. Added Info: http://www.defenselink.mil/news/news....aspx?id=24490 This is a US Navy Chaplain Assistant.
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___________________ TOP 
Last edited by ang1sgt; 09-21-2008 at 07:52 AM.
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#5
09-21-2008, 08:24 AM
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I would have to say no to this one...
A man of faith knows that when he dies He is going to meet the Lord Jesus Christ. So why would any minister be afraid of death? I mean to die in the flesh is to release the spirit so that you may fight the true enemy which is the Devil and his dark agents. I tell you that I believe in spiritual warfare and have had some freaky things happen to me but I know my authority as a discipling minister and as just a plain ole Christian. I knew a minister that told me a story once about how he woke up one night because he heard something and when he went down stairs he saw Satan...his response to Satan was, "Oh...its just you," then he proceeded back to bed. Like I said...a TRUE man of the cloth would know that when he dies he will be in eternal bliss in the presence of Jesus...so there is nothing to fear. Storm
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"Faith is the substance for things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen. For by faith the elders obtained good testimony." --Holy Bible/Hebrews 11:1
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#6
09-21-2008, 09:37 AM
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The Lord takes care of those who take care of themselves. I know where I am going to go when I die, but that does not mean that I will not do everything I can to live a long a fruitful life. I believe that Chaplains also have that right. If a Chaplain does not want to arm himself... fine. But those who have that desire, it should be an option.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say a Priest cannot take life to defend himself or others.
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Last edited by PaulR; 09-21-2008 at 09:40 AM.
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#7
09-21-2008, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
I strongly believe in the integration of faith and reason, and this seems like a perfect opportunity. I consider myself a man of faith and while not afraid of death, I have an obligation to use the intellect God gave me to the best of my ability. If that means carrying a personal defence weapon, so be it. However, I do see the point of the chaplain's assistants. I had actually forgotten about them. The Chaplain refraining from carrying weapons is part of the Geneva Convention, but what I'm wondering about the places where the Geneva Convention isn't recognized (where we are right now). Why play by rules that they themselves don't follow? Isn't that just endangering us more?
__________________
“Men of integrity, by their very existence, rekindle the belief that as a people we can live above the level of moral squalor. We need that belief; a cynical community is a corrupt community.” - John W. Gardner Last edited by SlightlyCatholic; 09-21-2008 at 11:39 AM.
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#8
09-21-2008, 11:22 PM
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#9
09-21-2008, 11:29 PM
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The Navy have enlisted guys (and gals) who are in the RP rating...it's part of their job to be armed and protect the Chaplain. Just because our enemy does not recognize the Geneva convention (and all the other "conventions" that we lump under "the Geneva Convention") doesn't mean that we should abandon our morals. As Americans, we have (almost) always taken the "high road," and while there are times to deviate from said road, this isn't one of them. Navy RP's and Air Force Chaplain's Assistants, and whatever the Army calls them can do their jobs...let them.
R/ Pingjocky
__________________
On the 8th day God created Submariners...and the Devil stood to attention! 
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#10
09-21-2008, 11:42 PM
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