Lejeune worker sues over car ban

[JohnP]

Lejeune worker sues over car ban (http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news...otest_111808w/)


JACKSONVILLE, N.C. — Jesse Nieto doesn’t wear his emotions on his sleeve.

Instead, the retired gunnery sergeant uses car decals to express his contempt for the terrorists who killed his son, Engineman 2nd Class Marc Ian Nieto, along with 16 other sailors in the Oct. 12, 2000, attack on the destroyer Cole in Yemen.

But the stickers maligning Islamic terrorism, which have adorned Nieto’s car for more than seven years, were recently deemed “offensive material” under a base order at Camp Lejeune, N.C., where he has worked in the Electrical Distribution Shop since 1994.

Military police removed some of the stickers in August, before the base magistrate ordered Nieto to remove the rest. The former infantryman, who served two tours in Vietnam, refused and now he is contesting the order’s legality in federal court.

Claiming a violation of his First and Fifth Amendment rights, Nieto is suing Lejeune’s commander, Col. Richard Flatau, and the base magistrate, Lt. Col. James Hessen. The complaint was filed Nov. 10 in U.S. District Court, Eastern District of North Carolina.

On the advice of his attorneys, Nieto declined to speak with Marine Corps Times, although he did allow his maroon Scion XB — with its remaining stickers — to be photographed.

The base order prohibits vehicles from displaying extremist, indecent, sexist or racist messages. Nieto’s ride, which sports a North Carolina license plate reading “USS-COLE,” featured some doozies: “Islam = Terrorism,” “Disgrace my country’s flag and I will sh-- on your Quran,” and an image of the popular cartoon character Calvin urinating on a Muslim.

Base MPs, who had written Nieto a traffic ticket for displaying “offensive material,” peeled those off his car Aug. 1. Two weeks later, Hessen ordered Nieto to remove the rest, according to the complaint filed by Nieto’s attorneys.

When he refused, Hessen issued a written order banning Nieto’s vehicle from all federal installations until the stickers are removed. Now he cannot drive his Scion onto Lejeune — or Arlington National Cemetery, where his son is buried.

Lejeune’s Equal Employment Opportunity office received “several third party complaints” about Nieto’s decals in July, base spokesman Maj. Nat Fahy said in a written statement.

“While he did remove several offensive stickers ... he refused to remove all of the offending stickers,” Fahy said. “At no time has Mr. Nieto been personally banned from his place of employment. It is important to note that prior to having his stickers removed, Mr. Nieto had ample opportunity to remedy the situation on his own and [was] given an opportunity to be heard in three formal administrative venues.

“While the commanding officer does not govern the activities of base employees once they leave the installation, he does have the responsibility and authority to promulgate policies and enforce good order and discipline for anyone living and working aboard Camp Lejeune.”

Nieto’s lawyers argue there are no objective criteria for determining what is offensive, giving Lejeune officials “unbridled discretion to determine which political viewpoints are permitted and which are prohibited,” according to the complaint.

They’ve documented other vehicles on base with stickers or decals that could be considered offensive, including an image of the Confederate flag with the words “If this offends you … you need a history lesson.” Another reads “When ya’ have ’em by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow,” and brass testicles hanging from trailer hitches.

“There’s a constitutional issue involved here,” said Richard Thompson, president and chief counsel of the Thomas More Law Center in Ann Arbor, Mich., which is representing Nieto. “Why are they picking on the stickers that were on Mr. Nieto’s car when there are all kinds of offensive stickers on cars all over that base? This is not a content-neutral policy that the base is enforcing. It’s allowing certain stickers on vehicles, but disallowing other stickers, depending on what the message is.”

Nieto’s attorneys filed a Freedom of Information Act request asking, in part, whether the base order had been enforced against anyone else there within the past five years. The answer was “no.”

“It’s a First Amendment issue and it’s equal protection under the laws,” Thompson said. “If his stickers are offensive, why not the ‘Marine Corps Hymn,’ which celebrates the Marine victory over Islamic forces in the Barbary Coast War and the Battle of Derne?”

Most of the stickers that remain on Nieto’s Scion are tame compared with those removed by the base MPs. The rear windshield, for example, features two Eagle, Globe and Anchor logos, a Combat Action Ribbon, a “Remember the Cole” tribute and a Gold Star flag.

Dead center, however, is a large Islamic symbol, circled with a red slash through it. “We died. They Rejoiced,” it reads.

For now, Nieto drives his wife’s car to work.

I got this from the Marine Corps times and also found it on the Military forum in the Air Force Times on line. I thought it worthy of discussion on this little site.

So what do you think? Should there be a ban on bumper stickers on military bases? By banning bumber stickers, does that violate Freedom of Speech?

Comments?

[HairyEyeball]

Since you ask, I think Col. Flatulent might benefit from some old-fashioned 'wall to wall counseling': Obviously his head and @$$ are no longer wired together. I also think that the M.P.s who vandalized his vehicle - and whomever gave/passed the order - should be formally prosecuted under Articles 109 and 134 for vandalism and criminal mischief.

There may, somewhere in the vastness of the universe, actually exist a proper venue for 'political correctness' (although I gravely doubt it). The heart of a warfighting establishment is not that venue.

[03_SHOOTER]

W.T.F. OVER?!?!?!?!!??

Has the Commander of Camp Lejune, the Base Magistrate, the MP's, and everyone else involved in this abortion completely lost their minds, and forgotten, if they ever even knew, that their respective Oaths of Office compel them to "...support and defend the Constitution of the United States...", including the First Amendment, regardless of whether they like it or not?????

Given that the terms "offensive", "extremist", "indecent", "sexist" and "racist" are completely subjective, and totally dependent upon the mindset of the one viewing them, ANY such order is unlawful on it's face. As Justice Stewart said in Jacobellis v Ohio, "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it,... in this case is not that." Now, if the Supreme Court of the United States cannot come to a consensus on what the term "pornography" means, what insurmountable degree of hubris and arrogance must the Commander of Camp Lejune possess to believe that he is capable of making the determination as to what "offensive", "extremist", "indecent", "sexist" and "racist" are??

I would also like to discover under exactly what regulation the MP's are authorized to engage in the destruction of private property, on non-military personnels POV's, and under what authority did the Base Magistrate order the further destruction of personal property on the aforementioned POV? Also, under what authority did the Base Magistrate issue an order effecting every other military installation in the United States? Are we to assume that each and every Base Magistrate has the authority to issue rulings concerning every other base in the DoD, without consulting with those individual bases Magistrates??

Oh, and the base EEOC office received several complaints about his car? And exactly who were the individual who made these complaints, and exactly how far were their heads SHOVED UP THEIR FOURTH POINTS OF CONTACT??? Are we to believe that the United States Marine Corp is now so "PC" that they are unaware that we are at WAR with islamofascist extremists, or are we to believe that given the deafening silence from the rest of the "peace loving" Islamic community relating to the wanton acts of terrorism being planned and executed by their "Mosque mates", that the rest of us are not supposed to not take note of the fact that the singular common thread these terrorists share with the rest of the "peace loving" Muslim society is the fact that they all pray to a LYING, CHEATING, THIEVING, PEDERAST, RAPIST, PEDOPHILE, and MURDERER (P.B.O.H.)? Whatever happened to Marines "happily wading waist deep through the blood and guts of our enemies while singing jaunty songs"? Do they even exist any longer, or has the Corps become systemically infected with the same sort of individual I referenced in another thread?

HAIRY!!! I believe it's LONG past time you made a trip back East, and gave some of these young Marines a LONG overdue education is "old school", because it sounds like a LOT of somebodies down there need a hard swift kick to their brain housing groups with a size 12 jump boot being worn by someone who knows how to properly administer the aforementioned kicking!!

[DaveIn3D]

Whatever happened to Marines "happily wading waist deep through the blood and guts of our enemies while singing jaunty songs"? Do they even exist any longer, or has the Corps become systemically infected with the same sort of individual I referenced in another thread?

HAIRY!!! I believe it's LONG past time you made a trip back East, and gave some of these young Marines a LONG overdue education is "old school", because it sounds like a LOT of somebodies down there need a hard swift kick to their brain housing groups with a size 12 jump boot being worn by someone who knows how to properly administer the aforementioned kicking!!

I take offense to those comments.

All this crap can be summed up with this :

"While the men are away, the paper pushers play."

There is no infection in the Corps. There might be a slight red mark but that is it. Lumping all Marines in the same boat as this jackass is a bad move on your part. Marines STILL happily wade waist deep in blood and guts and still sing jaunty songs commemorating the situation. We are still the most feared group of men on the planet. I got a size 12 boot for your 4th point for even suggesting my beloved Corps has a systematic infection.

And sending Hairy TAD out east to kick some butts into gear would be a bad idea. First..if you are not willing to do it yourself, dont volunteer someone else. Second..Marines are as highly trained as we have ever been in the entire history of the Corps. You dont need a drill instructor pounding some recruits face in to make him/her a good Marine. Striking recruits is not allowed not only because 'Mothers of America' doesnt like it. It is not allowed because it has been shown to be an ineffective technique for training.

Now if you want to send a delegation to Quantico and discuss the finer points of military instruction to officer candidates, then by all means, do so. I am sure your extensive experience in these areas would be well accepted by the cadre there. You can express to them your displeasure at the product they are producing. You can tell them about all the high quality, war fighting officers produced by the Air Force who would never think of putting P.C. before their troops.

I understand where you are trying to go with your comments, but you need to word them better. It sounds like you are trying to say all Marines are like that officer. I seriously hope that is not the case.


-3D

[03_SHOOTER]

Originally Posted by DaveIn3D

I take offense to those comments.

All this crap can be summed up with this :

"While the men are away, the paper pushers play."

There is no infection in the Corps. There might be a slight red mark but that is it. Lumping all Marines in the same boat as this jackass is a bad move on your part. Marines STILL happily wade waist deep in blood and guts and still sing jaunty songs commemorating the situation. We are still the most feared group of men on the planet. I got a size 12 boot for your 4th point for even suggesting my beloved Corps has a systematic infection.

Dave, when one of the two Basic Schools for Marines has the infection, it cannot help but spread to the rest of the Corps. It's that whole "logic" thing, you know, where "A" is followed by "B", which is followed by "C", so if you take "offense" at my comments, you are more than welcome to try to put a size 12 boot up my fourth point of contact. You won't be the first to try (as JohnP can attest), and I doubt you'll be the last. Just be sure to bring a ladder, some help, your chow, and plan to stay ALL day, and into the night.

Originally Posted by DaveIn3D

And sending Hairy TAD out east to kick some butts into gear would be a bad idea. First..if you are not willing to do it yourself, dont volunteer someone else. Second..Marines are as highly trained as we have ever been in the entire history of the Corps. You dont need a drill instructor pounding some recruits face in to make him/her a good Marine. Striking recruits is not allowed not only because 'Mothers of America' doesnt like it. It is not allowed because it has been shown to be an ineffective technique for training.

I'm not sending Hairy because I'm not willing to do it, I just didn't think it would do much for Marine Esprit de Corps to have their A$$ ripped off and handed to them by an old SAC troop! Some things are better handled by one of YOUR OWN. As for your "smacking the troops around isn't effective" canard, I have a question for you, HOW THE **** WOULD YOU KNOW? Have YOU been in the Service for more than 30 years? It seemed to be pretty damned effective for over 200 years until the "touchy-feely" let's all sit around in a circle (jerk), holding each other and singing Kumbya crap got started.

Originally Posted by DaveIn3D

Now if you want to send a delegation to Quantico and discuss the finer points of military instruction to officer candidates, then by all means, do so. I am sure your extensive experience in these areas would be well accepted by the cadre there. You can express to them your displeasure at the product they are producing. You can tell them about all the high quality, war fighting officers produced by the Air Force who would never think of putting P.C. before their troops.

The only way I'm even the slightest bit interested in "expressing my displeasure" with them is by smacking them upside the suck hole and TELLING them to extricate their craniums from their fourth point of contact!

Originally Posted by DaveIn3D

I understand where you are trying to go with your comments, but you need to word them better. It sounds like you are trying to say all Marines are like that officer. I seriously hope that is not the case.


-3D

Well it's unfortunate that your "PC" sensibilities have been offended by this mean old SAC troop, and to be honest, the unfortunate thing is that an old SAC troop COULD "offend" a Marine, but more importantly what I want to know is why aren't YOU "offended" by this Officers actions, or haven't you read the Constitution lately?

[PhilK]

Just to add fuel to the fire...

Here is the Ft. Hood policy letter on "Use of Indecent and Offensive Language"

http://www.hood.army.mil/policies/SJA-02.pdf

Although vague in many areas, if it was to be enforced...you would have a similar situation as above.

[03_SHOOTER]

Originally Posted by PhilK

Just to add fuel to the fire...

Here is the Ft. Hood policy letter on "Use of Indecent and Offensive Language"

http://www.hood.army.mil/policies/SJA-02.pdf

Although vague in many areas, if it was to be enforced...you would have a similar situation as above.

Well, I guess it IS systemic after all, NOBODY has read the Constitution, or understood what it MEANS!

[wukong]

Gunnery Sergeant Jesse Nieto is wrong and he will lose this indecent quest.


Colonel Richard Flatau is not only well within his authority but he is doing the right thing for the integrity of the Marine Corp and the entire US Defense establishment

Nieto’s ride, which sports a North Carolina license plate reading “USS-COLE,” featured some doozies: “Islam = Terrorism,” “Disgrace my country’s flag and I will sh-- on your Quran,” and an image of the popular cartoon character Calvin urinating on a Muslim.

I would bet that there are many Marines at Lejeune that are Muslims by faith as well as service members of our sister services. Neither Col. Flatau or the DOD can allow this type of behavior on our military installations. This is not a First Amendment issue but a matter of military discipline. Nieto has a right to his opinion and can sport it all he wishes in a civil setting. He does not have the right to insult other Marines or service members on US military installations.

[03_SHOOTER]

Originally Posted by wukong

Gunnery Sergeant Jesse Nieto is wrong and he will lose this indecent quest.


Colonel Richard Flatau is not only well within his authority but he is doing the right thing for the integrity of the Marine Corp and the entire US Defense establishment



I would bet that there are many Marines at Lejeune that are Muslims by faith as well as service members of our sister services. Neither Col. Flatau or the DOD can allow this type of behavior on our military installations. This is not a First Amendment issue but a matter of military discipline. Nieto has a right to his opinion and can sport it all he wishes in a civil setting. He does not have the right to insult other Marines or service members on US military installations.

Sorry to disagree Wukong, but you've overlooked the most salient aspect of this story, the good Gunny is RETIRED, and it is that fact that makes it a First Amendment issue! The Commander may well have been within his rights to ban any vehicle from the post displaying "offensive" stickers, but the fact that he has failed to do so in any other cases, and the fact that he authorized the MP's to destroy the private property of a "civilian" once it had already been allowed on the installation is flat out WRONG! If there is going to be a 'standard', it must be an unambiguous standard, and the fact that he has allowed Confederate Flag stickers on the post, especially given the large number of Blacks in the Corps today, and the fact that the regulation had not been utilized at any time in the past 5 years simply screams "apologist".

Also, the bit about offending Muslims on base is a canard of the worst sort. Where was all the hue and cry about offending devout teetotaler Christians and Jews for the past 200 years by allowing drinking, smoking, cursing, and using the Lord's name in vein on military installations? Where was the concern about offending German and Italian Americans during WWII when every troop was calling them "Krauts" and "Wops", including the ones in their own units?

Simply put, all of this drivel about "offending" Muslims is nothing but mental gymnastics and apologist non-sense brought on by the leftist defeatists who are all the way through the looking glass, and they're trying to drag the rest of the nation along with them.

When the day comes that our military is populated solely with "PC", "non-offensive" troops is the day that the French will KICK OUR ASS! Is that what you REALLY want?

EDIT: Oh, and one other thing, with the possible exceptions of transmitting classified information, or being disrespectful to a superior, exactly how is the Constitution in any way incompatable with "Good Order and Discipline"? We all understand that while we are in uniform, that we do give up some small portion of our Rights in the interest of "Good Order and Discipline", but that does not mean, in any way, that we surrender ALL of them, including the Freedom of Speech, and once we're NOLOAD we are no longer under any restrictions.

[DaveIn3D]

http://ramblingbob.wordpress.com/200...ructors-abuse/

ABUSE BY DRILL INSTRUCTORS

Along about July I was called to my attention that several drill instructors were to stand court marshall for abusing recruits. Since my grandson had just went active in July I have followed the case as closely as possible. In last Sundays paper a small article appeared in which the verdict of one Sgt. was relieved and the findings of the second told.

A Sgt. Jarrod Glass had been found guilty of striking recruits with a tent pole and a heavy flashlight, he also forced one recruit to jump into a trash can head first then pushed him farther into the can.

His verdict was eight counts of cruelty and maltreatment of recruits, destruction of personal property, assault and violating orders on how to properly treat recruits.

Sgt. Glass was sentenced to six months in the brig, a dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and reduction in rank to private.

A second Sgt. Brian Wendel was found not guilty of abuse but convicted of failing to report abuses committed by others. He was also found guilty of drinking beer in the drill instructors offices while off duty.

He faces a maximum sentence of a year in the brig, a dishonorable discharge and reduction in rank to private. His sentence was to have imposed this last Monday, but I have not seen any thing further in the paper.

A third Sgt. is awaiting charges and court marshal.

When I was first made aware of these charges in July the news paper article stated that a Marine Corps source stated that a average of six abuse cases are investigated each year. The source also stated that every effort is made to weed out these abusive Drill Instructors, as these Kids are at their mercy and are trained t view these men as gods, and are powerless when faced with this type of behavior.

Now here is where I have my gripe, I visit several web sites that are Marine Corps related. Every time something like this surfaces, there are always a few individuals who rush in and scream WHAT ARE THEY DOING TO MY CORPS? the mothers of America are ruining the Corps by interfering with the Marine Corps Boot Camp. back in my day we——.

Crap back in my day 50+ years ago you could not beat the hell out of a recruit then without discipline. Any action that places a young man at risk for injury is not allowed. A damaged recruit is of no use to anyone. Sure we were pushed to the limit and then past it but we were not hurt.

The other thing I often see is, keep these damn civilians out of the Marine Corps workings. These Sgt.s were tried by a Marine Corps Court Marshal convened and juried by Marine Corps Officers who know Marine Corps Law. There is no civilian interface involved.

I was just over on one of my favorite sites tonight and read a article by a man who just attended his grandsons graduation from boot camp in San Diego and he was decrying how easy his grandson had it in boot camp and whether they were turning out Marines as good as in his day fifty years ago. He needs to sit down with his grandson and learn what he has absorbed in his thirteen weeks of training. It was a eye opener for me I too felt that boot camp was softer than in MY DAY. A term the old guys like to use. My grandson learned more in his thirteen weeks than I ever did. their first-aid training is out standing and they ran farther than we did and Lord we did not even have any hand-to-hand teaching at all they had forty hours of it.

No it is right that we give these kids to protection they need, we are not making boot camp soft by weeding out abusers. In every organization there are abusers, be it Police, or any area of authority there are some bad apples even in marriage. Hell look it it we are afraid to let our children walk down the street any more. So when we send our young people off to train to defend our country we need to know that we are trusting them ot people of high quality and trust. Do not get me wrong I hold the Marine Corps Drill Instructor in high regard. Hell a couple I know had a hand in making me the man I am today. Their job is hard and demanding and they often are hated but the respect that a Marine has for his Instructor later in life if legendary.

You can find testimonials like these all over the net. Being rough with recruits in the course of training is one thing. Beating your recruits is another. To put it best...'beating a recruit in the face with a flashlight is not the same as training him to handle an AK to the face.' This issue isnt PC. This issue is common sense. The Marines do not have 200 years of experience roughing up recruits. They have 200 years experience training young men to be killers. The recruit depots werent even around until about 95 years ago. Before then, Marines were trained locally and to the varying standards of their parent units.

I have had the pleasure of attending two boot camps. My father has attended navy boot camp and army boot camp. My brother is coast guard. My grandfather was a corpsman in Korea and his older brother was a Marine at Iwo Jima. My family and myself have had extensive experience with the military. You can take that 30 years crap and shove it. My great uncle was not abused in boot. Before he died last year, he told my father that he was surprised his "candy-ass, chair force son made it through the 'new' Parris island." He said that the new boot challenged recruits more than he had ever been challenged and he was was being sent to war immediatly after training.

Discipline is enforced by physical pain. You do not need to hit someone to achieve that. Having someone pick up a full footlocker and hold it in front of them at a half squat is how you instill discipline through pain. The DI's at both MCRDs are well versed in the art.

Also, I am personally offended by what the Commander in question did. But when you are on base you are subject to his whims and he felt like he had to do something. I dont really agree with what he did or how he did it but he was within his right to do it. The civilian was on his base which means that civilian is subject to his rules.

I am not usually offended by missile babysitters like yourself, but you took a shot at my fellow Marines. I take strong offense to anyone who would dare question the actions of this Brotherhood of war. The balloon went up and you missed it. Dont take your anger out on these warriors.

-3D