Military Wedding Sword Arch

[usmctwinkie]

I'm an NROTC midshipman--can I have a sword arch at my wedding?

[Billyd]

I'm an NROTC midshipman--can I have a sword arch at my wedding?

Why don't you research the regulations and find out? I would expect a future officer wannabe in HairyEyeball's beloved Corps would understand the need to engage in some basic research prior to posting a question such as this.

[txb&b]

I can't tell from your post if you're just asking a question in general or if your nuptials are pending. If the latter, congratulations and best wishes for a long and happy marriage.

Many things need to be considered and addressed when having a military wedding, including whether or not swords are even allowed in the chapel being used. You would also want to make sure your bride doesn't mind being swatted on the butt with a sword. Here's one link (http://www.paradiseweddings.org/military_protocol.htm) that's very informative, but doesn't address whether or not it's proper for an NROTC midshipman to have a military wedding. I would suggest that you google: Marine protocol sword arch "military wedding" and read up on all the dress regulations and wedding protocol.

[HairyEyeball]

If you have any intention of becoming an officer in my Marine Corps, it might not be a bad idea to begin thinking with your 'big' head: As mentioned, the regulations are readily available to those with the initiative to search for them. Additionally, you claim to be a senior, which means you - and probably many of those in the wedding party - will theoretically shortly be commissioned officers. That means that you get to wear real uniforms (rather than playsuits), with all the 'accessories' thereunto appertaining: Q.E.D.

[SlightlyCatholic]

This should clear things up:

Navy & Marine Corps - The Arch of Swords

The arch of swords for weddings is authorized for commissioned, warrant, staff noncommissioned officers, and noncommissioned officers only. The arch of swords ceremony is an old English and American custom, which gives a symbolic pledge of loyalty to the newly married couple from their Marine family. Only the newly married couple is allowed to pass under the arch.
The ushers normally form the sword detail, however other officers, warrant or staff noncommissioned officers may be designated as needed. Customarily, six or eight members take part in the ceremony. The ushers form at the bottom of the chapel steps, in two equal ranks, at normal interval, facing each other, with sufficient room between ranks (3 to 4 paces) for the bride and groom to pass. The senior usher is positioned in the left rank furthest from the chapel exit.

The swordsmen, usually ushers, seat the guests, and after the mother of the bride has been escorted, will hook on their swords, wearing them until time to form the arch.

It is virtually the same as the Arch of Sabers except for the command "Officers, Draw Swords" when the swords are drawn from their scabbards in one continuous motion, rising gracefully to touch the tip of the opposite sword. Then, at "Invert Swords" there is a quick turning of the wrist so that the cutting edge is up.

From: http://www.weddingdetails.com/lore/military.cfm

[HairyEyeball]

OK, Timmy, perhaps you'd care to explain either why you didn't bother reading the preceeding prior to posting, or what, having read it, you failed to comprehend about the 'suggestion' the twinkie do his own homework?

[JohnP]

Tim will make a great shoe clerk someday.

[HairyEyeball]

Tim will make a great shoe clerk someday.

A celebate Al Bundy with a seminary education? The mind boggles.

[usmctwinkie]

OK, Timmy, perhaps you'd care to explain either why you didn't bother reading the preceeding prior to posting, or what, having read it, you failed to comprehend about the 'suggestion' the twinkie do his own homework?

It's actually her own homework, which I did, but found conflicting information and could not open the PDF files I found for the Marine Corps Drill and Ceremonies Manual. Seeing that I needed as quick an answer as possible because my wedding is this Saturday, I decided to ask here to find out more. I figured with the plethora of current and prior military personnel, maybe someone would be able to give me a definite answer.

Thanks Seminarian_Tim, I see now that what you cited is from the Drill Manual.

I thought you were supposed to use spell check on this forum Hairy?

[MP_Girl]

It's actually her own homework, which I did, but found conflicting information and could not open the PDF files I found for the Marine Corps Drill and Ceremonies Manual. Seeing that I needed as quick an answer as possible because my wedding is this Saturday, I decided to ask here to find out more. I figured with the plethora of current and prior military personnel, maybe someone would be able to give me a definite answer.

Thanks Seminarian_Tim, I see now that what you cited is from the Drill Manual.

I thought you were supposed to use spell check on this forum Hairy?

Okay first off, good luck with your wedding, but if you intend on staying on this forum, NEVER and I repeat NEVER call out another Senior Member such as HairyEyeBall, one whom is well respected on this forum. Just thought I'd throw my two sense in..

[HairyEyeball]

You still don't get it, twinkie, nor does little Timmy. Either you do your own homework, or you at least present some semblance of having made the effort. If this is what my Marine Corps is reduced to recruiting, that tremor is Chesty spinning in his grave.

[SlightlyCatholic]

I don't need a Moderator's permission to answer a post/question from another poster here on the Forum. All I did was exercise a little charity, seeing as how I had a little extra time on my hands and could offer assistance by looking up the answer.

[Billyd]

Tim, it isn't about you locating and posting the information being sought by the Marine Officer Wannabe. It is about the Marine Officer Wannabe not doing her part to find the answer. We demand and expect the cadets to do their own research prior to asking questions when the answer is in the governing directives. Should we expect less from those who are serving or are preparing to serve?

The Marine Officer Wannabe eventually admitted to finding conflicting information, which if she had said so at the beginning, would have resulted in a different outcome. She also admits that she doesn't have the necessary tools to open a particular type of document. I would expect that she acquire the tool necessary (it is free) and open the document to glean the required information. One additional thing that the MOW needs to learn is that unless it is "Life and Death," trying to find information on Tuesday for a wedding on Saturday, is likely to lead to disappointment.

As an NCO, I demanded nothing less from my subordinates. I expected them to know the regulations and the technical directives necessary to perform their jobs. That doesn't mean they had to memorize them, but be able to know that AFI36-2903 Dress and Appearance of Air Force Personnel would be about wear of the uniform. But if they wanted to work on the AN/TSC-100A, they would need T.O 31R2-2TSC100-1.

[SlightlyCatholic]

One additional thing that the MOW needs to learn is that unless it is "Life and Death," trying to find information on Tuesday for a wedding on Saturday, is likely to lead to disappointment.

I understand what you're saying, but wouldn't it be better to help the future Marine Officer out instead of lecturing her about not doing the work herself? If the wedding is Saturday, she needs answers instead of preaching, as she doesn't have much time. The fact that she came here means that she's already made an attempt to find the answer. I get the fact that those who plan to serve should be able to find their own answers. What I don't get is 1) why it's a crime to answer her question when she's obviously under a time constraint and 2) why it's okay to criticize someone for asking a question when they've exhausted other options. Would it be better for someone in her position to not ask and simply never find the answer? I doubt it, not with the wedding at the end of the week. I just don't see the practicality in yelling at her versus pointing her in the right direction or answering her question.

[Billyd]

Tim,

The point is she didn't tell us that. Here is her first post:

I'm an NROTC midshipman--can I have a sword arch at my wedding?

Nothing there indicates to me that she did any research, nor when the wedding would take place. That to me looks like a lazy Midshipman wanting us to do her homework. Had she phrased her original post in a manner that indicated to us that she had done some basic research (i.e. I found this conflicting information), our responses would have been drastically different.

You think I am hard on the cadets when they fail to meet standards, you need to be in the room when our young Marine Officer Wannabe pisses off the Command Sergeant Major. The Colonel will turn his back and let the CSM handle the "training" that will ensue.

[SlightlyCatholic]

Tim,

The point is she didn't tell us that. Here is her first post:



Nothing there indicates to me that she did any research, nor when the wedding would take place. That to me looks like a lazy Midshipman wanting us to do her homework. Had she phrased her original post in a manner that indicated to us that she had done some basic research (i.e. I found this conflicting information), our responses would have been drastically different.

You think I am hard on the cadets when they fail to meet standards, you need to be in the room when our young Marine Officer Wannabe pisses off the Command Sergeant Major. The Colonel will turn his back and let the CSM handle the "training" that will ensue.


I see what you're saying. I apologize for interrupting, I was just trying to help. Thank you for taking the time to explain that to me.

[usmctwinkie]

Thanks Tim.

[SlightlyCatholic]

Just as a side note: Might I suggest that we be careful when fitting people into classifications based on a couple posts? The fact that Twinkie is a senior in NROTC and will be commissioned as a Marine Officer means that there have been quite a few hoops to jump through and she has performed satisfactorily in order to get where she is. I'm not sure that her (allegedly) premature inquiry into a topic on this Forum can or should result in proposing that she is not fit to serve in the Marine Corps. I don't think any of us are in a position to judge her eligibility to serve our nation from a couple posts, prior service or not. The power that be in the Marine Corps and Twinkie's unit feel she is ready to be an officer, so that's fine by me.

Thank you for your future service and your current commitment to our nation, Twinkie.

[JohnP]

You still don't get it, twinkie, nor does little Timmy. Either you do your own homework, or you at least present some semblance of having made the effort. If this is what my Marine Corps is reduced to recruiting, that tremor is Chesty spinning in his grave.

Let's not get into name calling and insults. Tim has made valid points and for the sake of helping a brother (or sister) in arms.

I have done the same and still do the same in my current job. The secret of a successful business man is not the ability to know everything; it is the ability to know the experts in each field and not be afraid to ask for help.

"You are only as strong as your weakest link, your friends and the tables you dance on."

Besides, I think Chesty has better things to do than to roll over in his grave every time a green troop fails to meet an imagined standard.:dontgetit:

JP

[HairyEyeball]

You may be overlooking a few things that may be more obvious to us 'old-timers' on the forum, John.

First, Tim's 'experience', such as it is, is somewhat limited: He has given no indication of familiarity with ROTC or of the 'educational standards' of any 'institution of higher learning' than his own - and those 'standards' do vary, not only among individual colleges and universities, but between students (compare the engineering student with the linebacker, anyone?). I have first-hand knowledge of both Syracuse University (as a non-scholarship football 'walk-on') and Northern Nogales Community College (aka the University of Arizona) - I've experienced the stark contrasts.

Second, the twinkie named herself.

Third, unlike the uneven expectations of some services, every Marine is expected to be 'sharper than a serpent's tongue', and we - up and down - expect the same as a minimum from our officers that they do of their NCOs and snuffies. The twinkie's failures and shortcomings - adequately detailed above - are on her own head. Any Drill Instructor who allowed the award of my Eagle, Globe and Anchor to a recruit so lax would find himself shipped off that resort island off the South Carolina coast so fast his Smokey Bear would be left hanging in midair - and just to keep them from getting good men killed, his entire platoon would probably be recycled.

Lest I be accused of downgrading other branches, I've seen some of the best (and some not so ready for prime time) in all - the reasons being meat for a separate discussion. In all cases, a unit will perform to expectations, and like it or not, more is expected of us - by society at large, but more critically, by ourselves. I also have a slightly different perspective, shared by only a few on this forum: I had the responsibility of training the Marines these officers would lead. If one of them lost his life as a result of enemy action - or of his own lack of knowledge, preparation, or alertness - then I had to question whether there was something I'd missed that could have prevented it. If he died because an officer screwed up - I'll let you draw your own conclusions.

[SlightlyCatholic]

First, Tim's 'experience', such as it is, is somewhat limited: He has given no indication of familiarity with ROTC or of the 'educational standards' of any 'institution of higher learning' than his own - and those 'standards' do vary, not only among individual colleges and universities, but between students (compare the engineering student with the linebacker, anyone?). I have first-hand knowledge of both Syracuse University (as a non-scholarship football 'walk-on') and Northern Nogales Community College (aka the University of Arizona) - I've experienced the stark contrasts.

Where I attend school or what I do there has nothing to do with the fact that you know nothing about Twinkie and yet you automatically deem her unfit for service in the Marine Corps. Regardless of what you feel Marines should be, she is being evaluated by others who A) are judging her on more than a paragraph of text on a Forum and B) know her better than any of us. What you should be doing is trusting that your Marine Corps is doing its job by commissioning this woman instead of making judgments about her character, of which you know nothing. She asked a question about something she didn't know, as all of us have done and will do. It doesn't mean, however, that she should give up her commission and leave her NROTC unit because she doesn't know an obscure piece of information. That's a bit unreasonable.

[HairyEyeball]

No, Tim, you still don't get it - and you're assuming what the legal profession refers to as 'facts not in evidence' - as well as ignoring some which are. As to just how much I 'trust' my Marine Corps, suffice it to say that I have just a few years of actual experience with the beast, including some of the political machinations necessary to - in plain and simple terms - continue to receive federal funding. And in the 'real world', good men get needlessly killed when someone 'doesn't know' an answer, or 'doesn't know' where to look, or 'doesn't know' how to access information, or fails to provide critical details. Should you be ordained and commissioned, the full impact of that may just hit you the first time you administer last rites to a victim of such gross negligence.

While your defense of a fellow college kid may be admirable, if somewhat misguided, perhaps you might do well to confine yourself to subjects you have some direct experience with, or at a minimum, knowledge of.

[SlightlyCatholic]

And in the 'real world', good men get needlessly killed when someone 'doesn't know' an answer, or 'doesn't know' where to look, or 'doesn't know' how to access information, or fails to provide critical details. Should you be ordained and commissioned, the full impact of that may just hit you the first time you administer last rites to a victim of such gross negligence.

While your defense of a fellow college kid may be admirable, if somewhat misguided, perhaps you might do well to confine yourself to subjects you have some direct experience with, or at a minimum, knowledge of.

I realize that mistakes can get people killed, but this is a forum...and because it's a forum, we can't assume that Twinkie will be a substandard Marine Officer simply because she doesn't know the answer to a question. We simply don't know her, who she is, or her character. We know she asked a question to which she didn't have the answer.

With that said, I'll ask again...why does someone coming here and asking one question equate to their being inadequate for their chosen profession? Who are you (or any of us) to determine if she is fit for commissioning or not? You are a Marine, but you know just as much about her as the rest of us...which is next to nothing. An isolated incident is not enough to determine the character and future success of any individual, especially without knowledge of the person.

[wukong]

No, Tim, you still don't get it

Tim, your forebears had to go find a unit publications library, break out the appropriate binder and mechanically read page after page of regulations, instructions and orders to find the answer to quests for information both inane and serious. Today service members can text search the entire military database in a matter of seconds. We got our education in a long and laborious manner. Why should we not expect even a minimal attempt at finding appropriate information?

This officer wannabe would learn much more military lore by reading and research than by merely being gratuitously passed information gleaned from the effort others.

Knowing or learning HOW to ask for information is often more important than the information. This is one of the more important aspects of military life that this officer candidate and her peers must learn.

No one is refusing to assist someone in need. But realize that undue assistance prevents a well rounded education.

[SlightlyCatholic]

Knowing or learning HOW to ask for information is often more important than the information. This is one of the more important aspects of military life that this officer candidate must learn.

It seems from the tone of some of the prior posts that she shouldn't have asked for the information at all. How exactly was she supposed to ask for it?

This...

This officer wannabe would learn much more military lore by reading and research than by merely being gratuitously passed information gleaned from others intensive effort.

...is much different than saying that Twinkie is "what the Marine Corps has been reduced to recruiting". The quoted statement above is fine, but questioning her eligibility to be a Marine Officer is quite different. The latter was insinuated quite boldly, and I fail to see where the evidence for such an assertion is located (if such evidence exists at all).

All I want to know is why asking a question about a military sword arch on a forum permits the members of that forum to make negative judgments about the questioner's character and future success in her chosen profession.

[army_grunt_11B]

I'm with Tim here, I don't think by a person first few posts, can any one properly judge someone, on weather or not they are a good leader, or if they will bring discredit to your Service, I think, since this post has served its purpose (The original posters question has been anwsered, and as such, I personally think this thread is going no where good.) As for all we know, Twinkie could be the Future USMC Commandant.

[SlightlyCatholic]

I'm not trying to pick a fight. I just think comments like this...

If this is what my Marine Corps is reduced to recruiting, that tremor is Chesty spinning in his grave.

...are bovine fecal matter and the assertion that one is somehow justified in making them because they are a "Marine/Moderator/insert other term indicative of perceived omniscience" doesn't make said fecal matter any less irritating to the nasal passages. No one here should be making any judgments about anyone's current or future career, regardless of their experience or station in life. Twinkie is new and in college but she deserves the same respect as any member here.

[SGM]

I understand what you're saying, but wouldn't it be better to help the future Marine Officer out instead of lecturing her about not doing the work herself?

If you always give people the answers they will never learn how to do research themselves. When I was a 1SG I never gave my NCO the answers until they had demonstrated the ability to try to find the answers. Even then I would always ask them questions to make them think or act.

Its just like driving. If you always are a passenger in a car, most people never really pay attention how to get from point A to point B, but if you put them under the wheel, then they got to pay attention and learn.

[HairyEyeball]

You still don't get it, Timmy. Yes, this is 'just' a forum, but college kids and wannabes are the minority here - most of us have 'seen the elephant', seen what happens to the unprepared and the inadequate. And yes, the fact that twinkie 'neglected' to mention that she made a cursory effort does reveal quite a bit about her character.

And yes, despite your protestations, 'trying to pick a fight' is exactly what you're doing: With limited knowledge and unlimited arrogance, you're presuming to know more, based on what you 'believe', than people who base their conclusions on what they know - from bitter, life-and-death experience.

I don't particularly care about the opinion of some youngster whose heart may be in the right place but whose head hasn't been exposed to the harsh glare of sunlight. I do care about my Marine Corps - and in the event the relevant portion of the preceeding has been 'missed', I repeat - I took it personally whenever any Marine I trained died, agonizing over any detail I might have overlooked, anything that I didn't personally verify he knew backwards, forwards, and @$$-end around. I expected the same of my officers and SNCOs: That they either knew not only their 'jobs', but enough tangential information - and where to doublecheck it in a heartbeat - and they did.

There are kids your age - and twinkie's - doing just that, right now, in Iraq, in Afghanistan, and Lord knows where else. Ask them, when they come home, what their opinion is of an officer wannabe who waits until a week before what should be 'the best day of her life' to research the proper protocol, and what that says about her fitness.

[SlightlyCatholic]

There are kids your age - and twinkie's - doing just that, right now, in Iraq, in Afghanistan, and Lord knows where else. Ask them, when they come home, what their opinion is of an officer wannabe who waits until a week before what should be 'the best day of her life' to research the proper protocol, and what that says about her fitness.

I understand where your concern comes from, but at the end of the day nothing you can say on this forum changes that fact that you don't know her as a person. The Commandant of the Marine Corps could come on this forum and he wouldn't know her from Adam either. For all we know, she could be a stellar Marine Officer Candidate who had to ask the first question in her life about a regulation and decided to come here. We simply don't know her, regardless of combat experience, rank, service, or time in service. While Twinkie's actions could certainly be indicative of a substandard Officer Candidate, do you know for sure? No, you don't, just like the rest of us don't. Just because not knowing answers can get people killed in the real world doesn't mean that Twinkie somehow lacks quality or needs to find a new profession.

Listen, I respect everyone here...past, present, and future military. What I do not respect nor recognize as valid is someone's fallacious assertion that they can somehow judge another person here because of what they've done. You might be a former drill instructor, a Major in the US Army, a Navy SEAL, or a cadet but none of that gives anybody the right to make derogatory comments about another individual and their personal character traits.

Hairy, your Marine Corps service is admirable and to be commended but it is not a weapon with which you are permitted to bludgeon new members of this forum with unnecessary assertions which have no basis in fact. Nobody has that right and they never will.

[JohnP]

Okay all, let's quit beating this dead horse. All points were made and brought into light. Let's end this non-productive forum before more than egos and feelings are hurt.

JP

[SlightlyCatholic]

I'm good to go, I made my points. Lock it up and throw away the key.

[Armed Drill Addict]

Honestly the most ironic thing about this whole thing is that you are all sitting here arguing about someone who is no longer participating in the discussion. This went from arguing about answering the question into fighting the moderator with your ideals. I am not taking sides in this argument, but honestly Tim maybe you shold work a little harder to chose your battles before you fight them, and Hairy according to you these snotty college kids are beneath you anyway so why bother?

[JohnP]

Honestly the most ironic thing about this whole thing is that you are all sitting here arguing about someone who is no longer participating in the discussion. This went from arguing about answering the question into fighting the moderator with your ideals. I am not taking sides in this argument, but honestly Tim maybe you shold work a little harder to chose your battles before you fight them, and Hairy according to you these snotty college kids are beneath you anyway so why bother?

Like I said earlier. Drop this subject and kill this thread.:mad:

[03_SHOOTER]

Done and done.