AFJROTC: Position > Rank????? Is this even right?

[DVA5259]

Ok this is one of the biggest issues at my AFJROTC Unit.
I was given pushups by a C/1LT. under her Drill Team position. While me, I have worked as hard as anyone else to obtain my rank of C/CAPT.
She is also my FLT CC. I have always been higher than her at everything for the past 2 years, now this year; my junior year I've been given no major position.

So thing I want someone to clarify for me, is someone elses position greater than your rank?

It doesn't seem correct to be given pushups when the person who gave them to you in the first place is one rank or 2 ranks under yours.

Help is appreciated....

[army_grunt_11B]

Position is everything.
Say you have two MSGTs, same TIS, and TIG, but one is the wing 1st SGT, and the other is just a no job, msgt. The 1SGT would out rank, and be able to "boss" the other msgt around.

So on your drill team, since the C/2LT is the "Boss" you have to follow her, and help her out as much as possible, as you never know, your sasi might have not given you a job for a reason, and that reason could be they want you to be free so you can take over the corp. You never know why people do things, until they unfold over time. Don't get mad, just stick it in and do what ever you can to help everybody.

[TruBlu]

OK there are a few things going on that need to change.

1. In the AFJROTC program, no cadet, or instructor for that matter, is allowed to "drop" another cadet as a form of reprimand. Sorry, I don't have an official source on this, only quite a few cadet handbooks (we've had a discussion on this board about this topic) and personal knowledge. I am still trying to attain an official document, but haven't yet been able to locate it. So the "El Tee" can't drop you, or anyone else, anyways.

2. The deal with rank and position is a sort of limbo. Generally speaking, rank comes with position, so situations like this don't occur. But they do occur, and you have to know when you can speak up or just take a back seat. If someone is appointed above you and their rank is lower, you have to deal with it, that's just how it works sometimes. In business where said person may fall under you, they report to you.

3. This is something with you on here that we are strict about, rank abbreviations. You've got an Army/AF combination thing going on there. Check out this thread for the proper ones: http://www.gruntsmilitary.com/board/showthread.php?t=414&highlight=rank+abbreviations.

[army_grunt_11B]

OK there are a few things going on that need to change.
3. This is something with you on here that we are strict about, rank abbreviations. You've got an Army/AF combination thing going on there. Check out this thread for the proper ones: http://www.gruntsmilitary.com/board/showthread.php?t=414&highlight=rank+abbreviations.

Was that directed towards me?

[TruBlu]

Was that directed towards me?

No, I was referring to the author of the thread. I wouldn't expect you, not to say you don't, to have full knowledge of Air Force Cadet rank abbreviations, but the good cadet should.

[DVA5259]

Ok thank you everyone.
I will rely this information to my AFJROTC Unit. :)

As for the rank abbreviations, sorry. I'll remember for next time. ;)

[AirPower3P0X1]

An example from the Air Force: In technical training, most Airmen are E-1, E-2, or E-3. One of my team's Airmen Leaders is an E-1. I'm an E-3. I have to listen to him because he is in a higher leadership position. He's a squad leader, I'm a fire team leader.

[OrienteeringOH]

I've run into some similar situations. I'm a junior this year and had been serving as the Operations Officer. Recently, the Squadron Vice-Commander was removed from his position because of his conduct towards a teacher, so the SASI gave me his position. It was out of the ordinary as the CC/Vice positions were reserved exclusively for seniors. I was promoted to C/Capt. which put me in front of all of the AS IV Cadets, with the exception of the Squadron Commander (C/Maj.) The Drill Team commander, who is an AS-IV is also A C/Capt. and he who is in his fourth year, feels that because of that fact he ranks up over me. Last time I checked Squadron > Drill.

[armysc_25b]

The Drill Team commander, who is an AS-IV is also A C/Capt. and he who is in his fourth year, feels that because of that fact he ranks up over me. Last time I checked Squadron > Drill.

He would still be your senior though. For those who hold the same rank, whomever has had the rank longer (AKA Time In Grade) is the senior.

[OrienteeringOH]

So what happens when the result of the promotion board come out tomorrow and we both become C/Majors at the same time?.

[PhilK]

So what happens when the result of the promotion board come out tomorrow and we both become C/Majors at the same time?.

Then you are peers, unless one of you is placed in a command position over the other.

In my current organization there are five Majors, three Base Commanders and two staff officers (the Chief of Engineering and myself - Chief of Plans and Training), all of us work together as peers unless one of us is tasked by the Colonel to be the head of certain project then that person has the authority to task the others.

Complicated? Yeah it can be.

And no, not all of us have the same date of rank.

[armysc_25b]

The person who is senior in position would be the senior. If both are equal, I don't know how the Air Force does it but if I remember correctly, the next determination for the Army would be time in service, then age.

[DVA5259]

Ok I get it now. I previously was the "Freshmen Encampment" Overall CC, so I'm thinking the ASI's are saving me up for Wing CC next year.

As for the pushups thing, anyone have a valid document from the Air Force saying that it is banned from AFJROTC? I could use that document to present it to all Officers and Enlisted cadets. Help welcomed. :)

[Drill for life]

He would still be your senior though. For those who hold the same rank, whomever has had the rank longer (AKA Time In Grade) is the senior.

Yep, rank and position outweighing each other is very complex and takes time to figure out. I have a great example a BNCO telling you how to run your company. I promoted a Cadet from C/Sgt to a C/1stsgt and am planning on promoting him to C/2ndLt and last week she came to my Comapny inspection and took the Cadets rank away from him and we had a big argument and it ended in a sort of stand-off. She had no right doing that and she shouldn't have done it but we fixed it. You know it's real wierd we work at the same place and we get along fine after school(not during JROTC stuff) and during school, we act like best of friends but for some reason after practice she turns into a total B-word. I don't know but I feel like we need to go to Cadet Counseling or something like that. We are equals after school though, we are both Drill Team commander and we don't out Positon each Other except during school. Don't worry bout anything DVA5259 the World seems to unfold to your liking eventuall, you may not have the high rank and position in JROTC now but who knows in 35 years you'll be the hgher ranking and highly decorated person at your reunion;).
Best of Luck
Drill for life

P.S. Everythign is in Gods hands, just give him it all and he'll see whats fit to do for you. Don't worry I'll be praying for you.;)

[OrienteeringOH]

As much as a mock-up as we try to be JROTC isn't the same as active duty though, so the policies don't all transfer.

[DVA5259]

Yep, rank and position outweighing each other is very complex and takes time to figure out. I have a great example a BNCO telling you how to run your company. I promoted a Cadet from C/Sgt to a C/1stsgt and am planning on promoting him to C/2ndLt and last week she came to my Comapny inspection and took the Cadets rank away from him and we had a big argument and it ended in a sort of stand-off. She had no right doing that and she shouldn't have done it but we fixed it. You know it's real wierd we work at the same place and we get along fine after school(not during JROTC stuff) and during school, we act like best of friends but for some reason after practice she turns into a total B-word. I don't know but I feel like we need to go to Cadet Counseling or something like that. We are equals after school though, we are both Drill Team commander and we don't out Positon each Other except during school. Don't worry bout anything DVA5259 the World seems to unfold to your liking eventuall, you may not have the high rank and position in JROTC now but who knows in 35 years you'll be the hgher ranking and highly decorated person at your reunion;).
Best of Luck
Drill for life

P.S. Everythign is in Gods hands, just give him it all and he'll see whats fit to do for you. Don't worry I'll be praying for you.;)

Thanks, although I have been the highest decorated in terms of ribbons and medals, badges etc. for the past 3 years and highest ranking of my current school grade. But this year I was in "question" as to why I didn't get a position. :dontgetit:

So who knows maybe the position of "Wing CC" is in store for me next year?

[Billyd]

DVA5259,

I know you are still fairly new here, but I would hope that a cadet officer in a program would have the foresight to know where to find the regulations that govern his/her program. I would suggest that you take some time with your favorite search engine and see what pops up.

[TruBlu]

Pulled from AFJROTC Instruction 36-2001

8.4.2. Requiring cadets to perform push-ups or any other physical activity as punishment is also forbidden. These activities may only be performed as part of a unit’s regular physical training/wellness program.

It's said and done, there is the official documentation.

[devin0116]

Pulled from AFJROTC Instruction 36-2001

8.4.2. Requiring cadets to perform push-ups or any other physical activity as punishment is also forbidden. These activities may only be performed as part of a unit’s regular physical training/wellness program.

It's said and done, there is the official documentation.

TruBlu do ever cease to amaze us with your officialness??:D

[TruBlu]

TruBlu do ever cease to amaze us with your officialness??:D

I learned by getting publicly called out numerous times. That and most of our answers lie right in front of our faces.

[SlightlyCatholic]

I promoted a Cadet from C/Sgt to a C/1stsgt and am planning on promoting him to C/2ndLt and last week she came to my Comapny inspection and took the Cadets rank away from him and we had a big argument and it ended in a sort of stand-off. She had no right doing that and she shouldn't have done it but we fixed it.

You get to promote cadets? That's the first time I've heard of a cadet program where cadets promote other cadets. Your adult instructors don't promote them?

[flyBoy2010]

You get to promote cadets? That's the first time I've heard of a cadet program where cadets promote other cadets. Your adult instructors don't promote them?


That is the way my corps works. All promotions are made by the senior cadets before the ceremony and the SASI approves all of them beforhand.

[SlightlyCatholic]

That is the way my corps works. All promotions are made by the senior cadets before the ceremony and the SASI approves all of them beforhand.


Really...that's interesting. I guess you learn something new every day!

[TruBlu]

Really...that's interesting. I guess you learn something new every day!

This is standard practice for most JROTC units nowadays. Usually commanders will recommend their subordinates for promotion or commendation, then their commanders will approve it. The instructors will then approve or disapprove of a list of cadets that was formulated by the cadet commanders.

It takes a load off of the instructor, and the commanding cadets are the ones who really see what goes on all the time anyways.

[OrienteeringOH]

That is also how my unit operates. The Cadet Corps Commander holds a promotion board, and conducts interviews for promotion with each of the cadets who are eligible. The SASI/ASI do the promotions on special occasions (Unexpected appointments, etc.)

[Drill for life]

We just do it based on how the cadets acts in school,JROTC and after school activites. Why should we promote somebody who will abuse that power? WE rarely get promoted we get big promtions.

[FuturePilot09]

That is also how my unit operates. The Cadet Corps Commander holds a promotion board, and conducts interviews for promotion with each of the cadets who are eligible. The SASI/ASI do the promotions on special occasions (Unexpected appointments, etc.)

Hey, that's exactly how we do it. Our "Guide" says we will have a Promotion Board every quarter of the year, but we attempt to do it every full month - every school month. We look at their activity level, and attendance sheets for our Drill, Sabre, Rifle, and Color Guard Teams.:D

Ours is headed by the Vice Commander, and all Squadron Commanders, needing an odd number of officers. All Promotion Board members are junior or senior Officers and have a vote. Unexpected rank and Key Staff position changes are up to the SASI.:drill:

FuturePilot09

[StarLifter]

A heads up regarding promotions and AFJROTC units: Technically, you're supposed to revert to your permanant rank once relieved of a position in which you were issued a temporary rank. For example, if you're a Squadron CC in a Group, and have achieved the maximum allowable rank of C/Maj, but shortly after are relieved of or resigned from the position, you would go back to your permanant rank (for first years, is C/Amn, for second years is C/A1C, for fourth years is C/SrA and for fourth years is C/SSgt).

The regulation is written that way specifically to avoid circumstances like the original post addressed.

However, it is important to note that one could easily be of a higher rank, and still have to take orders from someone with even a substantially lower rank than them. I was a C/Maj in my unit, but as the Inspector General, it was part of my job to make sure that the unit was inspection ready. What that meant for my unit was that if I told the unit commander (who was a C/Colonel) that she needed to fix her continuity book or adjust administrative orders or issue promotions to meet the requirements as listed in AFJROTCI 36-2001 or in other AFJROTC related manuals, she was required to conform to my 'request.'

As the CO of the drill team, once you are in her flight, she owns you. Your rank doesn't matter -- only your position within the flight. If you're an element leader, you're an element leader. If you're a team member, you're a team member. The shiny piece of medal on your collar does not give you the authority to override the decision of the team commander if you are a member of that team. It's more of following the chain of command than looking at rank. You'll notice that a chain of command structure is put together using titles, instead of ranks (though it tends to list maximum promotable ranks as guidelines, in the case of AFJROTC). According to that chain of command, you could be the C/Colonel, in charge of the unit, but be following orders from a C/AB, if they happen to be in charge of the flight you're in.

As to the promotions themselves, in my unit, there was a signature sheet required for each promotion, involving the CO, Squadron Commander, Group Commander and both instructors before promotions could be issued.

-- StarLifter