15-count Manual of Arms - Or 14-count?

[WWW]

Here's the conventional 15 count manual of arms (the following manual of arms terminology describes positions, not commands):

Starting at order arms>right shoulder arms>left shoulder arms>port arms>present arms>port arms>?!?!PORT ARMS?!

In the chapter on manual of arms in the NJROTC Field Manual, on page DM-44, paragraph 3018 (Authorized Movements in the Manual of Arms with teh NJROTC Rifles), section 7 states that from present arms one can only move to order arms.

According to the 2008 National High School Drill Team Championships Challenge Level Armed Division - Platoon Regulation drill card*, all Navy and USMC teams should execute a 14-count manual of arms. That is, from present arms one goes to order arms, thus eliminating an incorrect movement and taking one count out.
So why do so many Naval JROTC (and probably also Marine Corps JROTC) cadets execute port arms after present arms as in the Army and Air Force when performing the "15-count"?




*http://www.thenationals.net/dt-ss-Challenge%20Regulation%20-%20Armed%20Division.pdf

[TruBlu]

With the Army and Air Force, its not actually Port Arms that they are doing, but that's how we order. We don't do as the Navy and Marine Corps which is more direct, but instead technically move to Port Arms because it is the most basic movement that you execute all other movements from.

Anyways, what I'm saying is this: in the Army and Air Force, its 15 counts and is perfectly correct (there is actually a 16 count also where every other movement is port, from order: port, right shoulder, port, left shoulder, port, present, order). In the Navy and Marine Corps, the 14 count is the same as the 15 count in theory (same movements but you guys are more direct in your order). So, the cadets that execute the movement in an Army or Air Force fashion, but are not part of that branch, are doing it incorrectly to their drill standards.

[El Supremo]

With the Army and Air Force, its not actually Port Arms that they are doing, but that's how we order. We don't do as the Navy and Marine Corps which is more direct, but instead technically move to Port Arms because it is the most basic movement that you execute all other movements from.

Anyways, what I'm saying is this: in the Army and Air Force, its 15 counts and is perfectly correct (there is actually a 16 count also where every other movement is port, from order: port, right shoulder, port, left shoulder, port, present, order). In the Navy and Marine Corps, the 14 count is the same as the 15 count in theory (same movements but you guys are more direct in your order). So, the cadets that execute the movement in an Army or Air Force fashion, but are not part of that branch, are doing it incorrectly to their drill standards.

Just to reiterate what Trublu said:
from attention,
Port
Right
Left
Present
Order.

I can remember at one time going from present arms, straight down back to attention (which is a 14 count). But in a Fifteen count, present to order, port is assumed and not listed in the drill manual. Thats according to the FM3.21-5 Cadet Drill Manual.

[Buffa1oso1di3r]

BTW, El Supremo: That's not the Cadet Drill Manual, that's the Army Drill and Ceremonies Manual. :P

FM: Field Manual (Actual Military)
CCR: Cadet Command Regulation (I think that's what it means -- Cadet Command)
AR: Army Regulations (Army).

There's a ton more for other services, just pointing it out...

---------------

Anyway:

There's a 14 count? Wow... I guess I've been ignorant... I knew of a 35 count, but never a 14...

But, I'm not going to restate what TruBlu and El Supremo said, because that's the fact of life. Army and Air Force do 15, and I have just learned what the Navy does.

[Drill for life]

Here's the key to ending this subject. FM 22-5. That should handle every Drill and Ceremony question. Here is how I was taught,
Attention
Port Arms
Right Shoulder Arms
Left SHoulder Arms
Port Arms
Present Arms
Port Arms
Attention
Drill For life.
Over and Out

[PhilK]

Here's the key to ending this subject. FM 22-5.

Actually, El Supremo has it correct: FM 3-21.5. FM 22-5 was replaced by FM 3-21.5 back in 2006.



Over and Out

And it is either Over or Out not both.

FM 24-18, Table 5-4.

[Drill for life]

my unit is still usin FM 22-5(I guess we need to change it).
Drill for Life
Combat's calling, are you ready?:D(I'm going to start using this after all my post)

[PhilK]

my unit is still usin FM 22-5(I guess we need to change it).

That would be a good guess. Since your unit is using the wrong FM.


Combat's calling, are you ready?:D(I'm going to start using this after all my post)


Right...whatever floats your boat killer.

[armysc_25b]

Here's the key to ending this subject. FM 22-5. That should handle every Drill and Ceremony question. Here is how I was taught,
Attention
Port Arms
Right Shoulder Arms
Left SHoulder Arms
Port Arms
Present Arms
Port Arms
Attention
Drill For life.
Over and Out
Trick question. Why, as posted, are your steps incorrect?

[TruBlu]

Trick question. Why, as posted, are your steps incorrect?

Can I take a shot?

There is an H that shouldn't be capitalized in there, and you can't go from Present Arms to Port Arms. It's like a hypothetical Port Arms for Army and Air Force if I may.

[Buffa1oso1di3r]

Attention
Port Arms
Right Shoulder Arms


There's no port there... you go immediately to the butt, not the stock...

At least that's how I was taught.

[armysc_25b]

Can I take a shot?

There is an H that shouldn't be capitalized in there, and you can't go from Present Arms to Port Arms. It's like a hypothetical Port Arms for Army and Air Force if I may.
Actually for once I wasn't looking at the grammar...LOL...

Minute detail, but yes that would be incorrect. The only authorized command from Present Arms is Order Arms, and going through the motion of it yes the first step is to go to Port Arms, however giving a command to go to said position would be incorrect.

[armysc_25b]

There's no port there... you go immediately to the butt, not the stock...

At least that's how I was taught.
Correct!

To go from Order Arms to Right Shoulder Arms, it skips being at Port Arms completely. As posted, Drill's order would be a 16 count movement.

[Buffa1oso1di3r]

Yay! Do I get a cookie Specialist? :)

Just kidding.

I have heard of the Manual of Arms going above 15 counts... I forgot how many it was exactly though.

[TruBlu]

Actually for once I wasn't looking at the grammar...LOL...

Minute detail, but yes that would be incorrect. The only authorized command from Present Arms is Order Arms, and going through the motion of it yes the first step is to go to Port Arms, however giving a command to go to said position would be incorrect.

Good stuff, I figured you were aiming for one of those.