Interactions of First Sergeants and Command E-9 Billets

[SlightlyCatholic]

I was looking at the functions of a First Sergeant, as well as the role of Command E-9 billets within units. The Navy and the Coast Guard use Command Chiefs, Senior Chiefs, and Master Chiefs. The Army, Marines, and Air Force, on the other hand, have both First Sergeants and E-9 command billets (Sergeants Major and Command Chief Master Sergeants). What I'm curious about is: a) would a unit ever have both a First Shirt and a command E-9? b) if so, the roles of each seem to be fairly similar, so how would their duties be divided up in the unit? c) if not, what determines which units receive First Sergeants and which units receive Command E-9's?

Thanks for looking at this and I'd love for anyone who's BTDT to clear this up.

[Startingover]

From what I can understand that can never happen, because the E-9 B, the command slot, is a single person that is in charge of the entire branches enlisted forces.

E-9 first sergeant, is just another first sergeant assigned to a Unit/Base/Fort etc.

and just for clarification the E-9 Sgt of the service, is the Advisor to the General of the service himself.

E-7
E-7* FS
E-8
E-8* FS
E-9
E-9* FS
E-9** Service Chief
E-9*** Chief of the service.

[PhilK]

In the Army, 1SGs are at the Company level, a Command Sergeant Major (CSM) can be found at the Battalion and higher level. You also have Sergeants Major who can be found on Battalion and higher staffs.

In an Infantry unit (as an example) you have the BN CSM and then you have 4-5 Company 1SGs (HQ Company, and 4 line companies (A-D))

The 1SGs are the senior enlisted advisors to the Company Commanders while the CSM is the senior enlisted advisor to the Battalion Commander.

[SlightlyCatholic]

In the Army, 1SGs are at the Company level, a Command Sergeant Major (CSM) can be found at the Battalion and higher level. You also have Sergeants Major who can be found on Battalion and higher staffs.

In an Infantry unit (as an example) you have the BN CSM and then you have 4-5 Company 1SGs (HQ Company, and 4 line companies (A-D))

The 1SGs are the senior enlisted advisors to the Company Commanders while the CSM is the senior enlisted advisor to the Battalion Commander.

Ok, so basically they're both Senior Enlisted Advisors, just at different levels of command. Would a First Sergeant ever have a reason to approach a CSM or would they stay strictly to their companies?

[PhilK]

Ok, so basically they're both Senior Enlisted Advisors, just at different levels of command. Would a First Sergeant ever have a reason to approach a CSM or would they stay strictly to their companies?

The BN CSM usually has meetings (both on and off duty) just with his 1SGs. Just like the Company Commanders go and talk with the Battalion Commander in regards to issues, the 1SGs go and talk with the BN CSM. Hell, sometimes the Company Commanders go and talk to the BN CSM about issues.

When I was a Troop Commander (same thing as a Company Commander except in a Cavalry Squadron), I had an excellent 1SG, but I would go and bounce ideas off the CSM just as a second layer of sanity check. That CSM and I still keep in contact as does my former 1SG.

In many aspects the 1SGs have "two masters". They answer to the Company Commander (who also writes his evaluation), but then they answer in an "unofficial" capacity to the CSM. I am sure one of the senior NCOs around here can explain it better.

[Startingover]

Alright, ill just use the Air force since it is familiar to me.

The First sergeants are all assigned to bases and then, the second level E-9, the Command Chief Master Sergeant, he is in charge of all enlisted personell below him. He is the head hauncho for the Air force enlisted corps.

Then the Chief Master Sergeant for the Air Force, he is the advisor to the General of the Air force himself.

[SlightlyCatholic]

I understand the part about the First Shirts, Command NCO, and NCO of the respective service. The Navy does have 3 E-9 ranks: Command Master Chiefs, Fleet/Force Master Chiefs, and the MCPON (Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy).My question was about the differences in function between the First Sergeant and the CSM (or the military equivilant for Air Force and Marines). Thank you for your input, Startingover.

[Startingover]

I understand the part about the First Shirts, Command NCO, and NCO of the respective service. The Navy does have 3 E-9 ranks: Command Master Chiefs, Fleet/Force Master Chiefs, and the MCPON (Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy).My question was about the differences in function between the First Sergeant and the CSM (or the military equivilant for Air Force and Marines).

Thanks for the update on the navy, I didnt not know.

The first sergeant acts as the disciplinarian for a base. He is the Morale person, kinda exactly like a multi purpose social services officer.

The Command Chief, he is in charge of personell all over the entire globe. All Enlisted personel and their professions, jobs, and skills fall under him.

Ask TOP more about the First Shirts, cause obviously he would know, he was one, and I dont know anyone better qualified to explain their duties as opposed to anyone on this forum.

[SlightlyCatholic]

I'm sure he'll come in at some point. Thanks for your help thus far, both yourself and Phil.

[Billyd]

Cadet, you have it wrong.

The First Sergeant is assigned at the Squadron and Group level and advises the appropriate commander on the welfare of the enlisted corps. This person performs more than disciplinary actions. They make sure that the enlisted person is treated IAW with laws and regulations by other organizations on and off base and on and off duty. They are another resource for supervisors seeking advice on getting help for troubled individuals.

At the base level, it is the Wing Command Chief Master Sergeant and he/she performs that same function, just on a bigger scale.

Each command also has a Command Chief. At the Air Force level, this Top Enlisted person is the Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force. The other services equivalents are:

Sergeant Major of the Army
Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Coast Guard

Tim, if you really want to know what the First Sergeant's job is PM Top, he will be more than happy to tell what he did as the Shirt of his unit.

[SlightlyCatholic]

Will do, BillyD. Thanks for the input and correct information.

[Startingover]

Now you have it too, Im sorry but Im trying to find out why everyone is getting first sergeant insignias for their Ranks on here. I already made a post elsewhere but I didnt know, at least from other things, that we wern't going to have first sergeant board insignias on here.

Alittle off track but still a needed answer.

And Thanks for the update, I had been told by my commanders about some of the duties being that of what you did say, I just used not what I should have, and I was using improper designation because of conflicting service names.

Thanks for the corrections.

[SGM]

1SG's job and CSM's job is some what the same only at different level - taking care of the troops. They (1SG, CSM) advise their Cdr on all enlisted and NCO issues. The 1SG is at Company level, under him he will have his Platoon Sgts. With in the Company the 1SG insures everything from toilet paper is provided to Training is conducted. at his Company level.

CSM's job is from Bn level or above. He is the right hand man for his commander on issues in the Bn, Bde, Div, Corps, Army. Each level will answer directly to the "official" Chain of Command - his commander, he will also answer to the "support" Chain of Command - the next higher level CSM. He keeps his commander advised of all Enlisted/NCO issues with in his unit. He will have meetings with the next level down of NCOs - 1SG with his Platoon SGTs, Bn CSM with his Company 1SG, Bde CSM with his Bn CSM, so on and so forth.

[PaulR]

Thankfully, there is only one E-9 Rank in the Coast Guard(Master Chief). We actually classify our Master Chief Petty Officer of the Coast Guard as an E-10. IF you ask me, the person who holds that rate deserves a raise! lol

http://www.militaryconnection.com/coastguard-ranks.asp

We typically have our unit E9 filling a "Command Chief"-same as First Sergeant- role. For the most part, they are removed from their rate and focus solely on unit enlisted matters. Although on a few of our cutters, the corpsman slot is filled by an E9 who also doubles as the Cutter's Command Chief as a collateral duty.

[SGM]

In the Army, 1SG is E8. CSM is E9.

[BronzeGoat]

1SG's job and CSM's job is some what the same only at different level - taking care of the troops. They (1SG, CSM) advise their Cdr on all enlisted and NCO issues. The 1SG is at Company level, under him he will have his Platoon Sgts. With in the Company the 1SG insures everything from toilet paper is provided to Training is conducted. at his Company level.

CSM's job is from Bn level or above. He is the right hand man for his commander on issues in the Bn, Bde, Div, Corps, Army. Each level will answer directly to the "official" Chain of Command - his commander, he will also answer to the "support" Chain of Command - the next higher level CSM. He keeps his commander advised of all Enlisted/NCO issues with in his unit. He will have meetings with the next level down of NCOs - 1SG with his Platoon SGTs, Bn CSM with his Company 1SG, Bde CSM with his Bn CSM, so on and so forth.


And don't forget, the CSM also ensures the soldiers' are wearing the correct headgear when they leave the chow hall, ensure they don't walk on the grass outside the battalion HQ, ensure the staff duty NCO has ensured the staff duty driver has mopped the battalion area...etc. You know, the really important stuff....:D

Probably one of the most difficult jobs in a typical battalion is being the
HHC 1SG. He has to take care of the soldiers assigned to the battalion staff and other support elements, while slugging it out with the battalion OPS SGM when details come up and he needs to get bodies out of the S-3 for support. Good times.:satisfied:

[Javelin66]

I can vouch for that as a former HHC commander. My 1SG had to deal with all of the senior officers as well as two levels of CSMs that thought they were his boss as well.

Just to clarify, First Sergeant and Command Sergeant Major are duty positions, not ranks. A Master Sergeant is not necessarily a First Sergeant, and a Sergeant Major is not necessarily a Command Sergeant Major. It can be confusing because they have special rank insignia for those positions (in the Army, diamonds for 1SG, star and wreath for CSM).

In the Army and Marine Corps, CSMs are selected from among their peers at that grade. In other words, you can make E-9 and not be selected to serve as a CSM. Similarly, not all captains get to command companies and not all LTCs get to command battalions.

[ang1sgt]

Been out on Walkabout...Sorry.

In the USAF The Command Chief is the functional Unit Manager for all the First Sergeants under him. Depending on the size of the Wing, that could be quite a few First Sergeants. The CCMS and the 1SGT do indeed have much involvement together. Whoa be to the 1SGT that has one of his people by-pass the chain of command and that individual goes to the CCMS. Shinola rolls downhill and it's rolling fast.

In my case, My end product was providing to my Wing, Deployable and Trained Airmen that could be called and sent anywhere at anytime.

[BronzeGoat]

Just to clarify, First Sergeant and Command Sergeant Major are duty positions, not ranks. A Master Sergeant is not necessarily a First Sergeant, and a Sergeant Major is not necessarily a Command Sergeant Major. It can be confusing because they have special rank insignia for those positions (in the Army, diamonds for 1SG, star and wreath for CSM).

In the Army and Marine Corps, CSMs are selected from among their peers at that grade. In other words, you can make E-9 and not be selected to serve as a CSM. Similarly, not all captains get to command companies and not all LTCs get to command battalions.

Just a clarification on the above post. A Soldier is actually promoted to Command Sergeant Major from Sergeant Major, much like he is promoted from Sergeant First Class to Master Sergeant. The Sergeant Major Academy selections, Sergeant Major selections, and Command Sergeant Major selections typically come from the same centralized board. Generally speaking, a promotable Master Sergeant is selected to attend the Sergeant Major Academy typically concurrent with his selection for Sergeant Major. A few years later if he is found worthy a board will then select him for promotion to Command Sergeant Major. It probably seems rather strange, considering First Sergeant is a temporary appointment and not an actual promotion, but a soldier must be promoted to Sergeant Major and Command Sergeant Major.

Administratively, this is seen in the way soldiers are classified by MOS. For example, in my field a Master Sergeant is 35Y5O. A First Sergeant is 35Y5M. Same MOS, different special qualification identifier. However, note that a Sergeant Major in my field is also administratively classified as a 35Y5O, whereas a Command Sergeant Major is a totally different MOS: 00Z. Of course, there are some especially exceptional individuals that are selected for promotion from MSG to SGM and then to CSM all in the same board.

So, to sum up my discertation, 1SG is a temporary appointment, whereas CSM is a permanent rank. For the Army, anyway. I'm still not entirely sure how the other services work. For instance, if I remember right a USMC Gunnery Sergeant tells his rater what rank he would like to be considered for in terms of promotion, i.e. Master Sergeant or First Sergeant. Depending on his decision, if he is selected for promotion he will stay in his chosen track to E-9, as in if he selected and was selected for Master Sergeant he will later be looked at for Master Gunnery Sergeant, and if he chose to go the route of the First Sergeant he would be looked at for Sergeant Major. I'm sure the guys from the other services would be able to explain their services procedures better. I've just gleaned most of that from my rater, who is a Marine Corps Master Sergeant.