Back with a nagging question...

[Startingover]

Hey guys, its been far too long since I visited here but i have a nagging question that I want some opinions on.

F-22/A model, the Lockheed Martin's Raptor.
Top speed at > 2.5x the speed of sound
Dual Turbine Jet engines
Invisible payload compartments
Invisible on radar itself
Has its own ability to reduce enemy radar effective range against the craft making its maneuverability more sound in enemy territory.
Has won almost every mock dogfight it has ever competed in
and costs around 170 million to make.

It is a plane that is more advanced than any other flying piece of technology in the skies and has a computer more advanced than all 4 remaining Space shuttles. It takes 2 weeks to train a pilot to sucessfully and effectively fly the craft and is capable of being used for long range and short range recon and attack capabilities.

And we can it... for the J-35? the Joint strike fighter? the ba----- child of the AV-8B harrier and the F-16 Falcon?

Who things thats a wrong thing to do?

[TruBlu]

The F-22 has not been 'canned' for the F-35. The two serve completely different roles. The case of the F-22 was determined when Congress felt that too much money had been wasted (realized they couldn't actually afford it) in the already 180+ aircraft that had been produced (yet to fly any combat missions) and canceled the production of any more. The F-35 will remain in production because it is much much cheaper to produce, only about $50,000,000 per unit, as opposed to the F-22's $200,000,000+ per unit.

[Startingover]

Actually TruBlu, the Parts-to-takeoff cost of the F-22/A Raptor is 135.2 million dollars as last quoted in May, 2009 of the Air Force Times and yes, it has been canned. The F-22 was deemed unnecessary because it cost too much to maintain the programs expansion and on account that we arn't selling the thing abroad.

The F-35, for reasons unknown is being built as a production fighter that can be sold to other countries with orders already in from various contributors such as Japan, Indonesia, India, England, France, and Italy.

Another thing, the F-22 has only produced 149 fo the expected 181 aircraft the budget is still slated for and was supposed to be a force of 220 aircraft. They are not meant to go overseas but are a multi-role air superiority fighter in replacement of the aging F-15 Eagles that are starting to literally fall out of the sky on command due to disrepair and the parts starting to become scarce for their production lines starting in the early 1970s.

Congress is shifting their budget toward the cheaper F-35/A Lightning II and frankly, the plane is a freaking joke.

F-35/A Lighting II
Expected top speed nearly 1.7x speed of sound
VTOL/STOL Capabilities
Stealth technology capable, but not surpasing the F-22/A
Reduceded weapons payload and engine output
Increased flight navigation

Like earlier stated, the thing is the Ba----- child of the Harrier and the Falcon. Both good planes but trying to put them together is turning out to be a nightmare of a craft because you get a technologically advanced cockpit but what is it worth in a craft that only has a ~1900 mi. round trip attack radius without a refueler in the air?

The F-22/A is the only Fifth Generation fighter in prodution or service, uncomparable to anything in the world. The F-35/A is a Fourth Generation Fighter with an upgraded role as a SUPPORT VEHICLE. It is not a multirole fighter.

[Startingover]

Sorry to sound a bit condecending there toward you TruBlu, I just dont understand, we have the biggest, the best thing in the world now... and we are literally instead of going forward with something good. Quite infact going backward to a plane that was designed for a multi service use that is not what we need at the time.

[TruBlu]

Actually TruBlu, the Parts-to-takeoff cost of the F-22/A Raptor is 135.2 million dollars as last quoted in May, 2009 of the Air Force Times and yes, it has been canned. The F-22 was deemed unnecessary because it cost too much to maintain the programs expansion and on account that we arn't selling the thing abroad.

I know it's been canned, but it wasn't for replacing the F-22 (at least that's not what it's supposed to be), and I think it's a bad idea too lol! The last price I saw on them was $200 million +, but those numbers changed more than the stock market to be completely honest. But for our Congress, it was simple math and a lack of understanding on the capabilities of both aircraft. They saw final price tags for both and thought, "It can't be that much different." Then they went for it.

[Startingover]

Well I mean, if they did a bomber that way, people could at least understand. Getting rid of the B-1 for the B-52 would be a good move in my opinion or refitting a C-5/C galaxy as a CB-5 would be better for firepower stance but to limit the best thing we have for something that isnt half as good is just... its a buisness deal that is going to go bad cause Russia and China are in development of a mock up to match it. It may be the best but it may have a competitor soon in the next few years.

[soccermark23]

You do realize that the main purpose of the F-22 is Air-to-Air Combat. Now think about this, when was the last time our forces were in a dog fight or situation in which a plane like this would be needed? It's been a very long time.

The F-35 on the other hand is going to serve as both an Air-to-Air and Air-to-Ground fighter, basically replacing the F-16, F/A-18, and A-10. The vast majority of our current missions involve Close Air Support roles for fighters, the F-22 just can not perform these missions, and with the current airframes being pushed well beyond their years, we need something to fill in and take their place.

[Startingover]

Its main purpose is a multirole fighter, not just Air to Air. It can be fitted with a number of different weapons and is actually meant to be an Air Superiority fighter to gain air supremacy over any terrain Land, Air, or Sea.

It is capable of a payload consisting of 6 consealed AtA missles medium range, and 2 short range AtA missles on the side bays in its wings. Also the 6 Medium range can be switched to 4 1,000 lb payload bombs and is sucessfully capable of bombing targets at a tested range of >23 miles away at an altitude tested at 50,000 ft.

The F-35, cant carry half of that payload of bombs, because above all, the Raptor can be fitted with extra payloads on its wings, though adversly affecting stealth and maneuverability which would be lost in the addition anyway, to be able to carry up to 8 bombs. From the articles allowed out, other information on payload ammounts and such is still classified. The F-35 however, cant carry most of that weight, seeing as how most of its reserve space is reserved for the fuel it needs to do Vertical liftoff and taking a veritcal liftoff drastically drops the weight ratio you would need to be carrying to get off the ground as opposed to conventional takeoff and landing. its easier to launch a plane going forward than to push it into the sky from the ground.

It is not simply an air to air combat fighter, it is a full Multirole Air Supremacy fighter, that fact standing, Air supremacy is the name of the game, if you dont got it, theres a problem.

"If I didnt Have Air Supremacy, I wouldnt be here." - Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower

[soccermark23]

The F-35 however, cant carry most of that weight, seeing as how most of its reserve space is reserved for the fuel it needs to do Vertical liftoff and taking a veritcal liftoff drastically drops the weight ratio you would need to be carrying to get off the ground as opposed to conventional takeoff and landing. its easier to launch a plane going forward than to push it into the sky from the ground.

You do realize that not all F-35s will be VTOL capable right?

There is another need for multiple airframes as well. If you recall earlier this year when the entire F-15 flight was grounded because of structural cracks found in the airframe, all other airframes had to pick up the slack while every single F-15 was inspected thoroughly and given the okay to return to duty. What would happen if we axed the F-35 and replaced our entire fighter fleet with the F-22, and then the F-22 had a problem similar to that of the F-15? I'm pretty sure you'd be able to hear a collective, "Oh $h!t" from the entire military.

[Startingover]

Acutally no, I hadnt heard that all F-35 would have VTOL/STOL capabilities. Though at the same time all the prototypes have it and they have yet to make a single one that was not still in "Testing" phase.

My bad, apparently they are being produced at a very slow rate but they wont be availible for military use until 2015 or later after the testing phase is done. There are only 30-40 in actual service, each of them is a portion of the A, B, and C variants.

I know of the F-15 grounding and quite frankly, that is what the F-22 is coming in to replace. The F-22 is replacing the 15, and the 16, and the 18 is still in life as I understand. The 35 in its concept stages was never meant to be more than a suplemental aircraft, used for aid to those and quick support where there is not established runways. It was never supposed to be a politically based decision to be the new backbone because it wasnt designed for that. Thats what the 22 was designed to do!

Quite frankly, I would much rather be in favor of having them both being produced together, because together they would kick A--. They would compliment eachother with other existing craft but alone, the 22 would do fine, and alone.... the 35 is going to fail miserably because and again here goes another what if...

What would happen when we finally got our main aircraft to be the F-35 and then they started getting slaughtered by Air Supremacy fighters? Where would everything be when all of a sudden they were obsolete-advanced tech? The F-35 cant last 30 seconds in a dogfight even with the Su-47, the Su-40, and the F-18. MiGs have advantages over them and even the Freaking Tornado can take the 35.

So we sit back and watch every other country produce their 4th gen fighters that can take our new craft just because its a cheaper aircraft? We dont want to spend the money to be the best that we can be just because we havent had many uses for a plane that quite frankly scares the living pants off of our enemies?