Cadet Chain of Command

[Command Chief]

OK I just got promoted to cadet Command Chief Master Sergeant and I have a chain of command question. At my last unit --- our Chief was part of the top three for staff meetings promotion boards etc. Well this is my fourth year in JROTC and my new unit has the command chief as number five with a squadron commander ahead of chief. My question is how is it set up at other Units so I can bring it up to our Corps Commander.

[TruBlu]

Depends really. The only organizational structure to utilize a Cadet CCM is the group and wing levels, usually AFJROTC units prefer the term SEA instead, but I'm more prone to Cadet CCM myself. Anyways, the Cadet CCM, like a SEA, is not in any chain of command at all, sorry. The Cadet CCM is built for cadet enlisted oversight and an aid to the CC, recommending proper courses of action and ensuring that the cadet enlisted are being treated properly and given equal opportunities. As far as chain of command is concerned, the Cadet CCM doesn't have much official ruling, but it is wise for CC's to heed their advice.

Can you further elaborate on the past structure where the position was the "number 3" and the current structure where the position is "number 5"?

[Command Chief]

Ok this is how it was in the past....

CC

DCC

CCM OPS

SquadronA and B

Now its....

CC

CCM

DCC

OPS Squadron B

But the Chief (me) is not considered top even though according to the chain I am

[TruBlu]

What your structure is telling me is this: You used to report to the DCC and worked alongside an OPS Officer who then commanded the Squadrons. Now you report to the CC and the DCC reports to you? Explain, elaborate, and don't be afraid to use complete sentences when describing an organizational structure.

[Command Chief]

It just does not make sense why on the chain of command board I am top and according to only the Corps Commander I am not. But after first nine weeks I get my c/Maj. ranks back so I do not have to worry about it too much for too long

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OK used to chief worked hand in hand with ops and gave all information to ops then it went up the chain from there. Now according to our board I am higher than DCC which makes no sense at all but I have to report to ops. But ops is Alpha squadron commander but has a higher job than Bravo squadron commander. So Bravo reports to Alpha squadron who is also ops, who then reports to DCC who reports to CC and chief does nothing. But last year when there was a different chief she was the CC right hand man and made sure DCC and ops did there jobs. It doesnt even make sense to me

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Pretty much now I report to nobody and nobody reports to me which defeats the whole reason of having an NCOIC

[TruBlu]

Sounds like you have some contingency problems. First you must understand this: The CCM is not a command position, no matter how misleading the title be. The CCM is designed as an adviser, he/she looks at a situation and then comes up with methods on how to deal with it, then presents it to the CC. The CCM is in place for the well-being of the cadet enlisted. Number one: a cadet officer reporting to a cadet enlisted is silly, it doesn't happen. That DCC you have been placed 'above' doesn't report to you, nor does any Squadron Commander or OPS Officer. The CCM generally reports only to the CC, although the DCC may also be acceptable in organizational structure. Number two: a NCOIC is in command of something, and usually never cadet officers, and if so, simply oversight. the CCM is not an NCOIC, but a group or wing level NCO.

But what does it all mean to you? Well, you've got to realize that the CCM is not built for command and that the primary duty of one serving in that capacity is to advise the CC on situations affecting the cadet enlisted (number 1) and the corps as a whole (number 2). To me, the CCM does not belong in the chain of command and should not have to deal with the chain of command to complete his/her responsibilities because he/she simply reports and advises the CC, that's it.

[armysc_25b]

An enlisted person will NEVER be in a command position unless the unit is absent of every officer assigned to it. As the CCM, your enlisted leaders should be checking in with you and seeking guidance from you when it comes to the care of the enlisted members of the unit. You would work directly for your commander advising them on the morale and welfare of your enlisted members, giving them guidance on pending actions that require their attention, so on and so forth.

In my AJROTC days, as an Executive Officer I NEVER directly tasked our CSM with anything nor did I require the CSM to report to me for anything. Often times it was myself meeting with the commander and CSM when discussions needed to take place about things and from there we each moved forward to advise our subordinates on what was going on.

Anyone serving in an E-9 position (Command Sergeant Major, Command Master Chief Petty Officer, Command Chief Master Sergeant, and Sergeant Major) is in no way authorized command authority, but serves primarily as an advisor/mentor to their subordinates (typically the E-9's and E-8's under them) and the commander they work for.

[TruBlu]

Anyone serving in an E-9 position (Command Sergeant Major, Command Master Chief Petty Officer, Command Chief Master Sergeant, and Sergeant Major) is in no way authorized command authority, but serves primarily as an advisor/mentor to their subordinates (typically the E-9's and E-8's under them) and the commander they work for.

Perfectly stated. Thank's 25B!

[C/CLN]

At my Unit, in the grand scheme of things, SEA is number seven in command chain (under Top 5 and Chaplain). But, the SEA never is a part of any promotion board, and he/she is tasked mainly with keeping track of the various NCOIC's and having NCOIC meetings (as Staff meetings are not generally conducted with both Officers and Enlisted; they are broken up in to Officers' Calls and NCOIC meetings, with the SEA reporting details of NCOIC Meetings directly to the CC) when needed. Basically, the SEA just makes sure the NCOIC's are doing their jobs, and directs them on whatever the CC wants the Unit's goals to be. The SEA's job is not particularly strenuous or demanding, but he/she plays an important role in both leading Enlisted Leadership in the Unit and also advising the CC when advice is sought.

[SlightlyCatholic]

At my Unit, in the grand scheme of things, SEA is number seven in command chain (under Top 5 and Chaplain).

What exactly does your Chaplain do?

[Command Chief]

Well I will put it this way according to our SASI --- Command Chief is the NCOIC who is in command of all enlisted, and makes sure all the NCO's are doing there job. I never said that the DCC reported to me just according to our chain of command board I am right underneath CC and above DCC which makes no sense. What I am trying to ask is how everyone else had there chain of command set up so I can bring it up to our CC. The reason is because last year which was my first year in this unit our COMMAND CHIEF was part of the top three because according to the cadet guide COMMAND CHIEF is in charge of all enlisted persons and takes care of special jobs assigned by the CC. I talked to --- last night about it and he said that COMMAND CHIEF is a COMMAND job because he/she is in COMMAND of all NCO and enlisted jobs. When I had my c/Maj. ranks I did not have a problem with our CC because he is a c/Captain but as soon as I get a job promotion and go down to c/CMSgt. he changes to chain to where I am useless. And we do not have a chaplain ours quit recently because it was "too much to handle". Now to only thing I wanted from all of you is how yall's chain is set up.....

[Startingover]

Every unit, every detachment is going to have it set up just slightly differently. Its all basically boiling down to who is making the decisions, the SASI/ASI or the Cadets. The SASI is always going to have final say in everything regardless but boiling down the soup of information it will always lead up to what is most effective. Larger Units will perfer to have more commanders so they can watch over all the underclassmen in a setup represented of similar to

1 Wing/Group commander < Several squadron commanders < Several Flight commanders < Several flight sergeants.

Others, who might be younger and smaller would more possibly be benefitted by a more secure base of commanders with few higher ups leading.

1 or 2 squadron commanders < 3-6 flight commanders with alot of supplementary commanders such as PA, Logistics, Supply, so on and so forth.

It just is based on the needs of the core, I would suggest sitting down with your commander and just going over what needs to be done and really think, how many good people do we have and what would suit our needs best.

[armysc_25b]

Chief, I suggest you don't take offense to what I'm about to say, but take it as the advice/constructive criticism it is.

Unless things are done drastically different in the Air Force when it comes to this topic, Non-Commissioned Officers do NOT have command authority. Irregardless of the title of a position or rank, that does not bestow upon it command authority. Just because your SASI says it's so doesn't make it correct.

[Psybadek]

What exactly does your Chaplain do?

Must be something way different than when I was a cadet Chaplain. I had no leadership authority as a cadet Chaplain

[TruBlu]

Now to only thing I wanted from all of you is how yall's chain is set up.....

Chain of command for my corps is pretty simple. I've set up a Cadet Operational Squadron with a Squadron CC at the number 1. Directly below him/her is his/her staff (Current OPS, Personnel, Logistics, Drill Team CC) and his/her aides (Executive Officer and our First Sergeant). All of the above reports directly to him/her, but none are in the chain of command. The number two in the chain of command is the Vice Squadron Commander, who reports only to the Squadron Commander and receives reports from all the Cadet Operational Flights, and our single Cadet Reserve Flight.

So chain of command overview: "Number 1:" Squadron CC; "Number 2:" Vice Squadron CC; "Number 3:" Individual Flight CC's. That's it. An effective chain of command is a simple chain of command. For my squadron, that's pretty easy, but no corps should ever have a chain of command to lengthy to easily list off and not complicated to explain.

Unless things are done drastically different in the Air Force when it comes to this topic, Non-Commissioned Officers do NOT have command authority. Irregardless of the title of a position or rank, that does not bestow upon it command authority. Just because your SASI says it's so doesn't make it correct.

AFJROTC maintains USAF standards and cadet enlisted are not issued command authority unless working as a team of enlisted with an NCOIC; even then there is cadet officer oversight.

[Command Chief]

Armysc and Starting over thank you for your advice instead of beating around the bush you told me what you thought. I accept criticism and any helpful advice. But Army the SASI does make the final decision in every unit it just depends on what he thinks is the best way to plan things, and there are enlisted people in command positions for instance Drill Instructors are technically in a command position and the Sergeant Major of the Army is in a command position and our unit is trying to make us a little more by military standards. But I do say again thank you for the advice and the posts and if any of what I just said was wrong or out of line please correct me.

[Billyd]

And once again we delve into the world of "Someone said this" or "Someone said that." Let's take this one step at a time. It makes no difference who says what in any military oriented program. What matters is what the Governing Directive say. In the case of the roles and responsibilities of the Command Chief Master Sergeant, may I direct your attention to the follow governing directive: AFI36-2618 Enlisted Force Structure paragraph 6.1.2.


6.1.2. Command Chief Master Sergeant (CCM). The CCM is the senior enlisted leader in a wing, NAF, MAJCOM, DRU, FOA, or other similar organization. The CCM is responsible for advising commanders and staff on mission effectiveness, professional development, military readiness, training, utilization, health, morale, and welfare of the command’s enlisted Airmen and takes action to address shortfalls or challenges. The CCM provides leadership to the enlisted force and is the functional manager for group superintendents and first sergeants in their organization.

Briefly, NCOs have NO command authority. First Sergeants, Command Chiefs, even the Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force have no command authority. However, woe be unto the commander/Chief of Staff that fails to heed their advice when it comes to the Enlisted force. These Senior NCOs serve an advisory function to their respective commander. Notice also, that the Command Chief Master Sergeant is not an authorized position for a Group.

Now, put your original question into the context of what AFI36-2618 Enlisted Force Structure says on the matter.

[Startingover]

One thing to point out Command Chief and i forgot this until TruBlu brought this up. NCOs may not have command athority, but an NCOIC does. NCOICs are NCOs in charge of officer positions when an officer is not currently availible or the position is not of worthy merit to be handled by an officer and is deemed appropriate for an NCO to be in charge of.

BillyD might be of great help here as well, I can slightly recall his very influential montras being near most spot on all the time in the realm of Athority positions for the Air Force.

Wow, as i was speaking he was typing as well, am I a psychic or something?

[armysc_25b]

AFJROTC maintains USAF standards and cadet enlisted are not issued command authority unless working as a team of enlisted with an NCOIC; even then there is cadet officer oversight.

That's not command authority. On the AD side of the house, those who exercise command authority are your commanding officers (company, battalion, brigade, etc. (replace with the respective term for your service)), not the NCOIC of a section. UCMJ can only be enacted by an officer with command authority (to include warrant officers who are exercising said authority for the Army). In the absence of the commanding officer (leave, TDY, or whatnot) another officer will be placed on orders as the unit commander during that absence; an NCO will NEVER be charged with said authority.

As a Command Chief Master Sergeant or Command Sergeant Major at the squadron/battalion level, it should be your charge to advise your commander on the morale and welfare of the enlisted members of the unit and to mentor them. An NCO can recommend anything; however, in most cases it only happens with the signature of their commander (awards, UCMJ, promotions with waivers, etc.). It is unwise of a commander to not listen to their NCO as typically the NCO's that serve in those positions under their commanders are more experienced in terms of being a servicemember and are typically closer to A1C Snuffy or PFC Murphy than LTC Smith is.

* BREAK *

Since "chain of command" has been brought up, who exactly does your chain of command consist of? I'm not necessarily seeking names or duty positions of specific individuals, but what each of those individuals have in common (*hint there's a key word in the term "chain of command" that answers everything).

[Command Chief]

OK to everyone helping me according to the manual we received at the unit the Command Chief Master Sergeant is the NCOIC of the unit.

[TruBlu]

That's not command authority.

Yeah, used a little off-wording there. Leadership/management position does not always dictate command authority.

...but what each of those individuals have in common...

Cadet officer rank; they are warranted command authority over one another in succession of greater responsibility.

[armysc_25b]

...but what each of those individuals have in common...

Cadet officer rank; they are warranted command authority over one another in succession of greater responsibility.

A chain of command is comprised of the commanders in succession from the Company Commander to the Chief of Staff. It does not include NCO's.

A lot of people get this confused because the term is used to include everyone above the individual in question. In reality (for the Army anyways), there is an NCO Support Channel which is basically the same as the chain of command is for officers; each successing NCO (1st line supervisor, Squad Leader, Platoon Sergeant, 1st Sergeant, etc.).

Just another piece of random information I learned in my studies while winning Soldier of the ___ boards to share with you all.

[TruBlu]

Just another piece of random information I learned in my studies while winning Soldier of the ___ boards to share with you all.

How modest you are. I believe you revealed that ___ in your signature some time ago...

[Command Chief]

I guess none of you have understood the question. I will say it again last year the CMSgt. (NCOIC)was top three. This year it changed why do you think so, and what does yalls chain of command look like.

[Startingover]

Might just be exec. decision there Command Chief. Not every commander is going to listen to their chief. It is EXTREMELY ADVISED in all situations but everyone is different. Depends, how many cadets are in your Squad/Group/Wing?

[armysc_25b]

How modest you are. I believe you revealed that ___ in your signature some time ago...

Month (Battalion), Quarter (Group and Post), Runner-up for Year (Group and Post), just take your pick...

[armysc_25b]

I guess none of you have understood the question. I will say it again last year the CMSgt. (NCOIC)was top three. This year it changed why do you think so

Couldn't tell you. What does "top three" indicate anyways, one of the top three "command" positions? Using the discussion that has taken place in this thread, I think you should be able to give a logical reason as to why.

what does yalls chain of command look like.

Company Commander, Battalion Commander, Group Commander... (sorry, couldn't resist... LOL)

[C/CLN]

Chain of Command (I have a very large unit):
CC
Deputy CC
Deputy of Operations
Operations Support Squadron
Services Squadron
Chaplain (which conducts prayers/invocation-type things, and gives spiritually/morally-based guidance to the CC and all Cadets in general; this is a very religious person, obviously. This person is also Enlisted at my Unit, to keep a good balance of Officer and Enlisted positions)
SEA
MWR Commander
etc., etc., etc.

[TruBlu]

I guess none of you have understood the question. I will say it again last year the CMSgt. (NCOIC)was top three. This year it changed why do you think so, and what does yalls chain of command look like.

Here's my chain of command again:

Chain of command for my corps is pretty simple. I've set up a Cadet Operational Squadron with a Squadron CC at the number 1. Directly below him/her is his/her staff (Current OPS, Personnel, Logistics, Drill Team CC) and his/her aides (Executive Officer and our First Sergeant). All of the above reports directly to him/her, but none are in the chain of command. The number two in the chain of command is the Vice Squadron Commander, who reports only to the Squadron Commander and receives reports from all the Cadet Operational Flights, and our single Cadet Reserve Flight.

So chain of command overview: "Number 1:" Squadron CC; "Number 2:" Vice Squadron CC; "Number 3:" Individual Flight CC's. That's it. An effective chain of command is a simple chain of command. For my squadron, that's pretty easy, but no corps should ever have a chain of command to lengthy to easily list off and not complicated to explain.

As to it changing, it didn't follow proper protocol to begin with, and the way you are describing it, still doesn't. In the end, it's just want still needs to be changed that matters: the CCM is in no way part of any chain of command.

[MEA XpLiciT]

Well, our Squadron Commander is directly below the Vice-Group Commander so yes ours is the same as your NEW command.