Principles of Organizational Structure

[TruBlu]

Due to the many many threads that have been way sidetracked by virtually the same discussion that is "organizational structures." I've created this thread where we can discuss it. So lets have at it.

[C.A.P. Flight Officer]

Is it ok if we also talk about staff positions on this thread, since it is somewhat related to organizational structure of a unit?

[TruBlu]

Is it ok if we also talk about staff positions on this thread, since it is somewhat related to organizational structure of a unit?

Roger Dodger. Everything that has to do with organizational structure, that includes any and all positions in the AFJROTC.

Oh, and c/Colonel, upload that chart here when you get a chance so we can talk about it.

[C.A.P. Flight Officer]

Roger Wilco, will do. It will be uploaded next week, thats when the info management officer will be finished.......personally I told him I would do it and post it on the unit board because he is as slow as molasses in winter. Good News, I got promoted to Mission Support Commander. I am now in charge of all of the staff. The old MSO was not doing his job, he was slacking and he was letting everyone else slack with him. So now I am third in command.:mp:

[TruBlu]

Roger Wilco, will do. It will be uploaded next week, thats when the info management officer will be finished.......personally I told him I would do it and post it on the unit board because he is as slow as molasses in winter. Good News, I got promoted to Mission Support Commander. I am now in charge of all of the staff. The old MSO was not doing his job, he was slacking and he was letting everyone else slack with him. So now I am third in command.:mp:

Very very cool! And that's OK about the chart, just take your time, I'm sure you have plenty of new responsibility with this new position. And what do you guys have the info management officer doing that it will take him a week to get an org chart (that's just my curiosity talking)?

[C.A.P. Flight Officer]

Very very cool! And that's OK about the chart, just take your time, I'm sure you have plenty of new responsibility with this new position. And what do you guys have the info management officer doing that it will take him a week to get an org chart (that's just my curiosity talking)?

My unit's IMO has to assist with doing inventory, since the inventory officer got fired.......you should have seen the reaction of some of the other seniors when I got promoted, they complained and said why does he get promoted andsuch and such...:mp:

[Startingover]

Typically this is how I have worked in JROTC, and it is similar in ROTC except we jumpd straight to Wing without regard to Cadet enrollment.

1 Wing Commander
- Vice Commander
++ Group A Commander - I never had bigger than a group, so it was just Group commander.
=== Squadron A Commander
----Flight Commanders A and B
=== Squadron B Commander
---- Flight Commanders C and D
=== Operations Squadron commander
----- IG
----- Mission Support
----- Public Affairs
++ Group B Commander
=== Squadron C Commander
---- Flights E and Drill Flight
=== Support Squadron Commander
---- Logistics
---- anything else not mentioned

[StormCrow]

In some Wings the Logistics Unit is its own separate Group and I believe is outlined as such in the AFJROTC Drill and Ceremonies Textbook. However, I have often argued that it can be a squadron in the Support Group and function just as well. Another thing is that In the Support Group, you should have a Service Support Squadron and a Mission Support Squadron, In many cases in units that are relatively large you can split the Support Group function so that you have a Mission Support Group, and a Service Support Group. My old unit started this when we grew to nearly 400 cadets. It works very well. If you all would like I could create some organizational charts so that you can see different possibilities.

Storm

[TruBlu]

In some Wings the Logistics Unit is its own separate Group and I believe is outlined as such in the AFJROTC Drill and Ceremonies Textbook. However, I have often argued that it can be a squadron in the Support Group and function just as well. Another thing is that In the Support Group, you should have a Service Support Squadron and a Mission Support Squadron, In many cases in units that are relatively large you can split the Support Group function so that you have a Mission Support Group, and a Service Support Group. My old unit started this when we grew to nearly 400 cadets. It works very well. If you all would like I could create some organizational charts so that you can see different possibilities.

Storm

I think that would be very interesting. My downfall is that I've never gotten to experiment with large structures because my unit has only about 60 cadets per semester (4X4 block schedule). If you could storm, that would be great. And I would really like to see one that could accommodate 400 cadets, like back in your unit.

[C/Major Black]

My unit's IMO has to assist with doing inventory, since the inventory officer got fired....

You know, i'm begining to have that same problem in my unit, AND THE SCHOOL YEAR JUST SARTED IN AUGUST!!

My IMO is slow as dirt, and is getting nothing done except the morning announcements. So i have been forced to help him since 2 years ago in my Sophmore year, I was IMO.

Not only that, my Logistics officer got fired on uniform day during a staff training session after school for insubordination (of all things). My ASI wants to demote him, but can't because he's the vice armed drill team commander.

None of this is really my business because me being a flight commander, i'm kinda on the other side of the organizational structure, but i kinda feel the need to be involved seeing that i have the largest flight in the squadron, with the most officers; and my ability and knowledge to do any job in my squadron.

But I like Flight Commander.:drill::blueberet:

[TruBlu]

You know, i'm begining to have that same problem in my unit, AND THE SCHOOL YEAR JUST SARTED IN AUGUST!!

My IMO is slow as dirt, and is getting nothing done except the morning announcements. So i have been forced to help him since 2 years ago in my Sophmore year, I was IMO.

Not only that, my Logistics officer got fired on uniform day during a staff training session after school for insubordination (of all things). My ASI wants to demote him, but can't because he's the vice armed drill team commander.

None of this is really my business because me being a flight commander, i'm kinda on the other side of the organizational structure, but i kinda feel the need to be involved seeing that i have the largest flight in the squadron, with the most officers; and my ability and knowledge to do any job in my squadron.

But I like Flight Commander.:drill::blueberet:

In my opinion, he doesn't deserve vice armed drill team commander if he was fired for insubordination from one job...

But, it is your business when a staff officer gets fired because you need to be aware of who you are interacting with. Its not necessarily your business when it comes to replacing him, but you should definitely be aware of it.

[TruBlu]

OK, I've uploaded C/Colonel's unit's organizational chart (I made it look a little neater if you don't mind man). But what I need to know from you is this: Is this all your positions? How does a flight break down? Who is under those staff officers, if anyone? Do you have a senior enlisted of some sort or an executive officer? Things like that. Also, if you could get me an approximation on the number of cadets your unit currently has, it would help tremendously.

[flyBoy2010]

Hey, the chart didn't make it up onto the post. Maybe you should try again

[TruBlu]

Hey, the chart didn't make it up onto the post. Maybe you should try again

Thanks, its up there now, I don't know what happened.

[TruBlu]

OK, C/Colonel, I think you will be very pleased about this. I have taken the information that you have given us and have reorganized it in a way that, I believe, is more efficient and much more explanatory. I have uploaded three files. The first of which is the proposed organizational chart, color coded for your convenience (red being your command staff, blue being blue squadron, gold being gold squadron, and green being the support staff); the second is a Unit Manning Document to be used in conjunction with the chart; the third is a text document of some statistics I wrote in about the advantages to this structure.

You will also notice that some positions are not the same name, some are added in by yours truly, and others are just plain gone. I have a reason for each and every position on that chart, and why each on is the way it is. Let me briefly cover those points.

-At the very top of the Chain of Command is the Group Commander. He/she is responsible for the entire corps of cadets and generally works with the SASI/ASI more than anything else.

-Directly below the Group Commander are three cadets, two of which are NOT in the COC. Those two would be the Executive Officer (function is basically an administrative assistant for the Group Commander) and the Command Chief Master Sergeant (function is basically a liaison between the lower enlisted corps and the officers/command staff. The third cadet is the Deputy Group Commander. He/she is the one that's dealing out the orders on the large scale actions (the Group Commander wants something done, the Deputy comes up with HOW they are going to get that done, then delegates command to his/her subordinates).

-Directly below the Deputy Group Commander are the three Squadron Commanders. Two of these are Operations Squadron Commanders and the third is the Support Squadron Commander.

-The Operations Squadron Commander is like the Group Commander in the way that he/she is responsible for whatever his/her squadron does, and how it does it. He/she receives orders from the Deputy Commander and then dispatches them to the individual Flight Commanders. He/she also has a First Sergeant that aids him/her in decisions pertaining to the Squadron, and acts as a liaison between the Squadron Commander and lower enlisted cadets.

-The Support Squadron Commander is the "go to guy" when staff is called upon. Any major decision in a unit will involve at least one, but usually almost all staff members, and this guy/girl is responsible for each of them. He/she receives orders from the Deputy Group Commander and then delegates to his/her staff members. Like the Operations Squadron Commander, he/she is also responsible for the actions of each staff officer/NCO.

Stay with me here, we are going to skip around a little.

Back up to the operational aspect of the corps.

-The Operations Flight Commander is responsible for all the cadets within his/her flight. He/she is the first link in the COC for most cadets (in the sense of an officer). These are the day to day commanders that the unit relies on the most. He/she is also, like the Operations Squadron Commander, assisted by a senior NCO, the Flight Sergeant. Unlike the Operations Squadron Commander's First Sergeant, the Flight Sergeant IS in the COC and acts more like the Deputy Group Commander than anything else (smaller level and less stripes though naturally).

Back over to the support aspect of the corps.

-Like your current organizational structure, I to included eight staff officers. Only, I condensed and eliminated one to make room for a very very key element that your unit is missing (but more on that in a second). The staff officers include: Personnel Officer, Logistics Officer, Physical Training Officer, Recruiting Officer, Current Operations Officer, a Comptroller, Public Affairs Officer, and a Computer and Technologies Officer. What has been removed is the Information Management Officer and what has been added is Current Operations Officer.

-First, the removal of the Information Management Officer. In every unit that I have been able to look at, the duties of the Information Management Officer can be consolidated under a couple of other duties, for your unit the Personnel Officer and the Computer and Technologies Officer.

-Second, the addition of the Current Operations Officer. Your unit NEEDS one! The Current Operations Officer is the guy/girl that is planning every one of your unit's extracurricular activities, events, etc. They should be handling the phone calls to organizations, the permission slips needed for the trips, and organizing these event as a whole.

The rest of the positions are pretty self explanatory in my opinion, and if they aren't, or have a look at the LE1 book (that's where most of them come from).

What I do want to explain are the support flights. These flights are composed of cadets that are currently placed in Operational Flights, but are given the opportunity to participate in a support position, while taking load off of that staff officer. Each flight would have 3 different specialists, a personnel, a logistics, and a physical training. You can see that recruiting has the same amount, but these cadets could be any one in any position in the corps. I didn't place them on the UMD because what they really are is an action committee, and there shouldn't be a set amount or rank for any of those slots. The staff positions that do not have support flights for are ones that are generally handled by just the officer and NCO. Introducing specialists to these flights would do more harm than good by taking too much of a load off and leaving the officer with nothing to do but deliberate, or the positions require a more experienced cadet that can operate with a small team to get things done quickly and efficiently.

I think that covers all of the positions and the COC.

Please look this over carefully and thoroughly. Give it good thought and some deliberation. Try to find discrepancies particular to your unit or things that you may think will work better. In the end, its really whether or not YOU are satisfied, as its YOUR unit it would be affecting. I hope you like it.

[C.A.P. Flight Officer]

WOW.....Thank you TruBlu, I appreciate your time and effort you put into this for my unit. I am impressed with the org chart you made of my unit and will take the proposed chart into deep consideration, after all anything that will help my unit deserves deep consideration. I will personally give the proposed chart, that I like very much, to my SASI and my unit commander. :mp:

[TruBlu]

WOW.....Thank you TruBlu, I appreciate your time and effort you put into this for my unit. I am impressed with the org chart you made of my unit and will take the proposed chart into deep consideration, after all anything that will help my unit deserves deep consideration. I will personally give the proposed chart, that I like very much, to my SASI and my unit commander. :mp:

OK cool. Just bring along those statistics and that UMD to go along with it, it could help out in explaining things. Just tell me what they think, and I'm glad you like it.

[C.A.P. Flight Officer]

I have a problem... I am the Mission Support Commander(#3 in Chain of Command), I control the entire staff for my unit, and the Operations Commander(#4 in Chain of Command) jumps over my head to get to the unit staff and tell them what to do for our annual cadet dinning inn. The correct procedure, in my unit, to do anything with the staff is to go through me since I control the staff. The Operations Commander does not follow that procedure and I end up being in the dark at the weekly staff meetings.

[flyBoy2010]

Let him know that his behavior is unacceptable. If it is allowed in your unit, give him an acceptable punishment. If the behavior continues, inform your Vice Commander and Corps Commander and recommend that he be disciplined or removed from office. He needs to learn to respect those appointed over him.

[TruBlu]

I have a problem... I am the Mission Support Commander(#3 in Chain of Command), I control the entire staff for my unit, and the Operations Commander(#4 in Chain of Command) jumps over my head to get to the unit staff and tell them what to do for our annual cadet dinning inn. The correct procedure, in my unit, to do anything with the staff is to go through me since I control the staff. The Operations Commander does not follow that procedure and I end up being in the dark at the weekly staff meetings.

First off, talk to him/her about it. Also, report to your direct commander, the vice for you I believe, and inform him/her of the situation. If nothing happens, inform your staff to not accept orders from him/her because they shouldn't anyways. If all else fails, go to your SASI, and by then it should all be straitened out.

[C.A.P. Flight Officer]

I was left in the dark again today at the staff meeting. I was ticked and the Operations Commander knew it. I warned her not to do that to me again, she understood and knew that if she did that agian she would be drilling until the sun doesn't shine.

[flyBoy2010]

Good, now make sure it stays that way.

[c/ltdan2192]

Just a quick question. Does anybody have any suggestions on a Group-esque structure with a Squadron sized enrollment?

[TruBlu]

Just a quick question. Does anybody have any suggestions on a Group-esque structure with a Squadron sized enrollment?

Lol. Haven't we talked about this? Anyways, my idea on a Group structure with a squadron size is to have a Group CC with a Vice below. Then two squadrons, an Operational Squadron and an Operational Support Squadron. The Operational Squadron would have all of your Operational Flights + reserve units if reserve units are not sufficient for it's own squadron. The Operational Support Squadron would contain the staff officers, and if applicable, their flight's. That's the basic gist of it.

It's a hard decision right? Between an extremely large squadron or a very small group.

[C/Msgt.wraith]

Just a quick question. Does anybody have any suggestions on a Group-esque structure with a Squadron sized enrollment?

Why would you ask that? We've been working on this for a long time and have our ideas ready to be put into action.

[TruBlu]

Why would you ask that? We've been working on this for a long time and have our ideas ready to be put into action.

He wants ideas from we those in the peanut gallery who watches our unit unfold on this forum... It's a good natured, "what are your thoughts?"

[C/Msgt.wraith]

He wants ideas from we those in the peanut gallery who watches our unit unfold on this forum... It's a good natured, "what are your thoughts?"

Oh I see. My thoughts are still being processed about what to do about our current situation.

[RLM10_2_06]

Let's hear a little about what your various cadet staff positions are and what they do. I've seen a huge variety, even within just a single branch of JROTC, but it's aways fascinating. If you have any questions about how a function works, feel free to ask, since I, of all people, would know. Here's a breakdown of my corps:

Executive Staff (the big wigs)

-Corps Commander - Works with the instructors to make all decisions regarding any aspect of the corps and gives orders accordingly. Actually is not supposed to perform any actions or other duties.
-Vice Commander - Has no real duty other than to assist the CC upon request
-Inspector General - The Commander's "eyes and ears" throughout the corps. Gives feedback on department performances and cadet promotions.
-Executive Officer - The one who does all the CC's paperwork.
-Command Chief - Manages the cadet enlisted leadership; bit of a tricky position

Operations Staff (the first six listed are also Squadron/Class Commanders)

-Operations - Supervises the performance of all staff positions (except CC and Vice) and sees that CC's orders are carried out. This is the person who receives all orders from the CC and distributes accordingly.
-Logistics - Places regulations on the Logistics room, checks in new gear
-Services - Provides resources for other departments
-Supply - Checks out gear, keeps track of quantities and logistical needs
-Plans and Programs - Plans future events (military balls, etc.)
-Mission Support - Provide manpower and assistance to other Operations staff members upon request

-Chaplain - In charge of morale and motivation within the corps
-Comptroller - Manages the budget, along with the instructors
-Personnel Officer - Manages cadet personnel files
-Community Service Officer - Arranges community service projects for the corps

Command Staff

-Squadron Commanders (also serve in the Operations staff)
-Squadron Deputy Commander - Takes over when the Sq/CC is gone
-Squadron First Sergeant - The teacher in the realms of...everything, really
-Flight Commanders and Flight Sergeants (AS3/4, AS2, and AS1; yes, the AS1s now have their own flight commanders); don't have any actual in-class duties, since our classes are squadrons. They are simply another pillar of leadership when needed, though they keep track of their cadet's promotion points and demerits
-Element leaders aren't practical, given the fact that AS1s are in a different classroom; we simply use whoever is the best marcher.

[Flyboy]

This is what I am proposing to the big wigs as a change for our command structure. We have basically just been adding to our original squadron level corps and it is really starting show. Much less work is getting done as more cadets join, simply because we don't offer any way to relieve work while we increase workload. What do you guys think?

It is fairly large. (It has the UMD, Statistics, Current CoC, Step One CoC (the mass change that must take place over a summer, while the others are gradual and can happen any time), Step Two, and Step Three.) Mouse over the thumbnails to see what each one is.


~~Flyboy

[Flyboy]

Man, just one short of getting it all to fit, here is the UMD.

~~Flyboy

[RLM10_2_06]

Man, I felt like MY corps was complicated :o I shuddered to think what will happen when it becomes a wing next year, but that...wow. We've had a problem with being very top-heavy, but still somehow having way too many cadet officers without jobs, so the expansion is a necessary one.

[Flyboy]

Congratulations on your wing. :) I don't know about you but that is one of our biggest goals, is to make it to a wing.

The CoC seems big because of two things:
1) It is split into sections where it can grow and shrink easily to working positions. This works well when we have a problem like we are facing right now where we don't have enough 3rd years due to a recruiting problems a few years back, and in case we see a big boom in recruiting we can move up and down.
2) I took "leadership position" from meaning leading a flight, department, squadron, w/e and changed it to meaning anyone who does something to help the corps (whether that is folding clothes for LG or filing for HR). "To add growth, lead followers; to multiply, lead leaders." - The Law of Explosive Growth, 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership, John C. Maxwell

~~Flyboy

[TruBlu]

Good lord my man! I'm loving it, but before I even think about examining what you've got I'm going to want a closer look. Do you think you can e-mail me all of those original files so I can examine them up close? That would be so cool!

[Flyboy]

Sure, just sent it.

~~Flyboy

[TruBlu]

Thanks my brother. I'll take a look at all of it and see what I can't make out of it. And I do have 2007 so lucky me!

Edit: Wow, you've really put some work into this! I'm going to put in some time to really take a look at all bits of it, including your calculations. I'll put my input in after a some time, possibly a few days.

[Flyboy]

Yup, started right as this post started (it is why I started questioning our CoC). Right now it looks like if we can meet recruiting minimums, we will be moving up to this one.

Thanks agian
~~Flyboy

[TruBlu]

OK after some review, I don't have much to say to be honest. But what I do have to say could result in a whole lot more if taken in all sincerity. What you have here is what I may now call the "Indian Tribes Syndrome." OK, now "Indian Tribes Syndrome" is when there are too many chiefs and not enough Indians, and your tribe (corps) begins to fracture. You call for more leadership programs in a leadership oriented program. This is a viable argument, but by doing such, you open the floodgates to mass organizational structures like the ones you have produced with a tendency to forget your actual size. *Mind you I do not know your corps' size and would like to to more adequately examine this situation.

So, lets look at number three, the big kahuna, your pride and joy. This is the structure where you will have 101 'leadership positions.' Now your target range for this structure (by your standards) is a 120 cadet minimum and a 140 cadet maximum. I look at this and the first thing that I think is that 19 to 39 cadets will not be in a 'leadership position,' and to me, that's bad. In this scenario, if you aren't one of those 19 to 39 cadets, you serve of no importance when compared to the importance of positions like "Color Guard Team 4 Commander," "Orders of the Day NCO," "Supply Staff" under an officer and three other NCOs, and the same for an "Administrative Staff."

What you want to do is move your corps in size, and in turn your amount of leadership positions. You also say that your biggest goal is to achieve "Wing" status, a very commendable goal, and by the looks of it, achievable. Yet you do not have a Wing sized structure in either of the three proposed structures. Instead you maintain a Group level operation that expands from the bottom, by creating positions that may or may not be necessary. This is another thing you must also be considering at all times: NECESSITY. If you do not you will create a bottom-heavy corps (something rarely discussed) that has a COC and support scope that trickles down so much that it is quintessentially ineffective.

I really want to delve deeper into this subject matter, maybe we could have a chat through an IM program or something because I feel that I do not understand the scope of your thought process on this.

And here's what I will recommend and even offer to help with: create a structure that matches your highest aspirations for the corps (that is to say one that is attainable) and build it. This means think Wing and increasing your operational aspects rather than your support roles. If you would like, I can create some charts based on your UMD and structures and see if I can't find a Wing structure that suits you. It would be cool to work with you on something like this seeing as though I only get to play with Squadron level operations, being that the highest in my corps.

What do you think?

[Flyboy]

Sent you some stuff with MSN Messenger, I will definetly be looking into putting in a part 4 and maybe even 5 to take care of 200 cadets and then a wing. I definetly want to talk some more though.

Thank you
~~Flyboy

[TruBlu]

Flyboy: OK, expect PMs to be inbound.

To Everyone: And soon I'm going to post up an update to my corps' structure, it has changed a little and I believe that we have the supreme Squadron organization for the highest level of command. Hopefully I can get some input on it and maybe work out anything I didn't think of.

[cyclonecadet]

This is how my ROTC unit is set up currently.
*Wing CC
*Wing CV/IG
-Wing GMCA (is a C/3C)
-Ops Group CC
--Squadron 1 CC
+AFLT CC
+BFLT CC
+HG/CC
--Squadron 2 CC
+CFLT CC
+DFLT CC
+DT CC
-Mission Support Group CC
--Force Support Squadron CC
Positions such as PFO, Special Projects, Personnel, etc.
--Communications Squadron CC
positions such as PA, IT, Comm,etc.

Of course we have some leeway to change the structure. It is different almost every semester because the Wing CC create it and put people where they think they should be.

[HWFG1]

Ours goes somewhat similar to this:

Executive Staff:
Groups Corps Commander
Vice Corps Commander
Inspector General
Administrative Officer
Executive Officer

Operations Staff:
Director of Operations
Special Projects Officer
Ceremonial Commander
Logistics Officer
Plans Officer
Public Affairs Officer
Safety Officer
Chaplin
Personnel Officer

Command Staff:
Squadron Commanders
Flight Commanders
Saber Team Commander
Unarmed Drill Team Commander
Armed Drill Team Commander
Color Guard Commander

23 Total Officer Jobs

And we have a Senior Enlisted Advisor who gets the rank of Chief Master Sergeant and pretty much is in charge of relations between the enlisted cadets.

Very similar to another post I saw on here o.O