Tuition and Illegal Immigrants.

[FeelinFroggy]

Tuition and illegal immigrants
A court ruling that illegal immigrants can't get in-state tuition rates will harm many students.
September 22, 2008


For the last seven years, illegal immigrants attending California's public university and community college systems have been eligible for in-state tuition rates. The thinking behind this practice was that, regardless of their parents' actions, children had no choice in crossing the border illegally; academically gifted immigrant students shouldn't be condemned to a permanent underclass.

Last week, however, a state appellate court ruled that California was violating Congress' intention of barring illegal immigrants from a benefit reserved for legal residents. The decision sends a class-action lawsuit -- brought by out-of-state students who contend that they have been required to pay higher, nonresident fees while illegal immigrants pay in-state tuition -- back to Yolo County Superior Court. It also presages the end of higher-education opportunities for thousands of motivated students.


Congress' intent does seem clear. The Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996 reads, "An alien who is not lawfully present in the United States shall not be eligible on the basis of residence within a state (or a political subdivision) for any postsecondary education benefit unless a citizen or national of the United States is eligible for such a benefit."

California sought to skirt this law by granting in-state tuition to all students who graduated from and attended a California high school for at least three years.

Foes of illegal immigration, who argue that generous benefits encourage lawbreakers to come to California, will rejoice at the decision. And we acknowledge the inherent contradiction of providing a public benefit to students whose parents presumably don't pay any income tax to help pay for it.


Nonetheless, we believe that California's law is in the state's best interest. By law, states must provide K-12 education to illegal immigrants, and it's counterproductive to then erect roadblocks to further advancement for our best and brightest. Studies show that investing in education for immigrants pays off. Assuming they remain in California, their economic contributions more than make up for the cost of subsidized college tuition within a few years. Forcing them to wallow in permanent poverty, by contrast, is a drain on taxpayers -- as well as being flat-out immoral.

California is one of nine states providing in-state tuition to illegal immigrants, and given the absence of leadership from Washington, we don't fault any of them for attempting to address the educational, economic and social needs of the populations within their borders. The real problem is not the states' violation of congressional intent, but Congress' failure to follow the trail blazed by the states.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-ed-tuition22-2008sep22,0,3326298.story?track=rss
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The United States spends more per student than any other industrialized nation, yet it ranks at the bottom in degree completion (54%), says a 2007 report by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development. The organization average is 71%; the high is 91% in Japan.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2008-04-30-college-tuition_N.htm


Why dish out the money to pay for an illegal immigrant or an illegal immigrants kid to go to college when they are already nothing more than a parasitic organism to our society? They "hypothesize" that illegal immigrants will eventually graduate, and essentially, "pay for themselves". Who's to say they'll even graduate at all? Then once all that money is wasted on them who's to say they won't run across the border again once the bills start to roll in?

It's comforting to know our tax dollars are paying for these illegals to get an education.

[pingjocky]

More hard earned tax dollars going to waste thanks to the Dems. Unfortunatly, this kind of thing is becoming the norm and more "socially acceptable." Heck, I read the other day where some Cali schools are harboring illegals and hiding them from INS (or whatever that agency is called now).

Getting off the "illegal" side of this thread, and focusing on the money / school issue......Last year, my property taxes were about $2300. According to the itemized bill, a little over $2100 of that was to the local school system....I don't have kids!!! Why are people paying so much into a school system that is defunct and rife with corruption? Based on the amount of cash that we are paying in, we should have the best educated rug-rats in the world, yet we are ranked among the last? I say get rid of public schools, and privatize all school systems. Instead of paying the gov $2100 I could use that cash elsewhere in my life...also, if the school system was really getting that much money from each student, they could afford to hire teachers that actually gave a crap about them.

And we wonder why we're in a recession........corruption, plain and simple. From multiple sources.

R/
Pingjocky

[SlightlyCatholic]

Getting off the "illegal" side of this thread, and focusing on the money / school issue......Last year, my property taxes were about $2300. According to the itemized bill, a little over $2100 of that was to the local school system....I don't have kids!!!

In relative relation to this, I am an only child and I have attended private school from kindergarten all the way through high school and yet every year my parents have to pay for the public school system. I never once saw any benefit from that money. Then again, people also refute that by saying that since I was sent to a private school all those years that we must be rich. Therefore, we shouldn't be nitpicking about a little money to the public school system. Needless to say, we're not rich at all. Just goes to show you how many people pay for things that they never see the benefit of.

[pingjocky]

I have attended private school from kindergarten all the way through high school and yet every year my parents have to pay for the public school system. I never once saw any benefit from that money.

Ditto...but I bet you got a much better education out of the deal, I know I did. I grew up in SC...back when it was still 50th in the school rankings. I'm sure I got a better education than my public school counterparts. Nope, we never saw any benefits from all the cash we poured into the public schools either....and I still don't!!

R/
Pingjocky

[SlightlyCatholic]

Ditto...but I bet you got a much better education out of the deal, I know I did. I grew up in SC...back when it was still 50th in the school rankings. I'm sure I got a better education than my public school counterparts. Nope, we never saw any benefits from all the cash we poured into the public schools either....and I still don't!!

R/
Pingjocky

Now that I'm in college, I can definately see a difference between the public and private students. I'm not calling anybody who went to public school dumb, I'm just saying that (unfortunately) it's blatantly obvious in a college classroom which individuals weren't taught what they needed to be taught earlier on.

[Woody]

Oh for petes sake you live in a society then you contribute to it .Society long ago decided its better off if children are educated .Public school system may need fixing taking money away from it wont fix .
No benefit from it how many people who do things for you during your day learned stuff at public school ?
How does an illegal immigrant get to university anyway ?

[Billyd]

Oh for petes sake you live in a society then you contribute to it .Society long ago decided its better off if children are educated .Public school system may need fixing taking money away from it wont fix .
No benefit from it how many people who do things for you during your day learned stuff at public school ?
How does an illegal immigrant get to university anyway ?


I would venture to guess this is an example of "Publik Educashon" at its finest. Please, we have standards.

[SlightlyCatholic]

Private schooling isn't getting any cheaper, and my parents can't afford to pay for little Johnny's education up the road. Why should my family have to use their hard earned dollars to pay for someone else to go to school? That and as a Catholic I have moral reservations about what goes on at the majority of public institutions...but that's more of my own personal reasoning. In any case, yes, I live in the society...but at this point I'll NEVER use the public school system and my parents still have to pay. Why?

[Billyd]

Tim,

The problem is not only with the public education system, but with how it is funded. If you really want to make a difference, control MUST be taken from the state and returned to the community. Unfortunately, with the the unions and the abomination known as "No Child Left Behind," the chances of that happening are slim to none.

[StormCrow]

This is great,

We're giving out money to put NON-CITIZENS through school when:

1. We can't pay our teachers
2. Can't give our kids a decent education
3. Can't pay for our kids education
4. Can't fund for new material for our schools

Seriously, our government...one of a kind...

Storm

[SlightlyCatholic]

I've had some indirect unfortunate experiences with "No Child Left Behind". My cousin attends high school and last year she got five D's and one F. However, because the "F" wasn't in a "major" subject, she was advanced. Oh, and now she's a sophomore and isn't doing well because she didn't learn anything freshman year. I'm not putting the full blame on the school for her performance, but the school needs to stop pushing these kids through.

[StormCrow]

What it is,

Its the governments own sick way of trying to catch up to the numbers that are being set be Japan, and other great educational countries, like the Philippines. And as noble as the cause is...yeah...its not really working very well.

Storm

[CAPSmith]

I am glad that there is a public education system in this country. I am glad that we as a society determined that educating our citizens would be the way to improve our quality of life and secure our standing in the international community.

As a community it is our responsibility to ensure that our children are educated. You may be paying $2,000 dollars into your local tax system to fund the school, but any child that attends that school is getting far more than you are putting into it.

It is because of the older generation whose children who have already gone through school and those who have no children that this system succeeds.

If schools were funded solely by those who had children in attendance at any given time those taxes would (in my school district) be approximately $18,000 per year.

I think we can all agree that our public school system is in danger though. It is underfunded and doesn't have any real benchmarks to ensure that the pupils are actually learning something. We have taken away the local communities influence in the curriculum and standards, instead accepting standards based so low that those who don't know the language can somehow pass English class.

On the debate of instate tuition rates for illegal aliens, I personally don't agree with it. Many states use tax payer dollars and out of state tuition rates to subsidize the instate rates. To provide discounts that are hinged on my dollar to someone who has not/ is not contributing is just plain wrong.

Our own citizens are not eligible for many of these discounts and programs.

[SlightlyCatholic]

What it is,

Its the governments own sick way of trying to catch up to the numbers that are being set be Japan, and other great educational countries, like the Philippines. And as noble as the cause is...yeah...its not really working very well.

Storm

Our way of making sure everybody wins the limbo game is to take the bar out of the picture...that way nobody has to bend at all and they all just walk right through and get back in line.

[StormCrow]

That's the truth, Tim. Truthfully I haven't really heard anything mentioned in the election about how we're gonna fix the education system. I understand that economy is important, but the leader need to look at all of the issues not just the ones that will win him points with the politicians.

Storm

[SlightlyCatholic]

Well one thing we could do is tell MTV to stop glorifying people like Paris Hilton. She tells kids, "Guess what? You can be dumb and rich and have a great life! If you have money, you don't need education! Yay capitalism!"

Also, our society makes graduate school so unattractive it's ridiculous. Grad school = debts, fighting for a job you may not get anyway, and a ton of time. The last one is inevitable, but the first two shouldn't happen in any society. We need to teach the next generations that education is valuable, and so are the people who spends lots of money to go get a new one (and ESPECIALLY people who educate themselves to educate others).

The last thing I'll mention is promoting learning for learning's sake. I'm asked on campus "why the hell I chose to major in philosophy" and, "Wow, you can't do anything with that when you get out." What happened to someone learning to expand their mind? Why do we have to equate a course of study with a paycheck? While I'm technically obligated to study philosophy, I think I'd do it anyway because it teaches me how to reason and to think in a flexible and intelligent manner. The problem is because that can't be measured in dollars and cents, society deems it worthless. We don't even recognize a philosopher as a legitimate professional, which I think is sad. There's a reason Plato wanted philosophers in charge of the State.

[StormCrow]

Well,

MTV comes up with retarded stuff anyways. Speaking of Paris Hilton, she has a new show about people competing to become her new best friend. What kind of unconditionally retarded stuff is that. Truly, Kids minds are poisoned in today's society. Another show...From G's to Gents...if they weren't smart enough to make a life for themselves why make one for them. I think its that kids are under the illusion that if you don't have an education its okay, MTV will help you out...

Storm

[SlightlyCatholic]

Well,

MTV comes up with retarded stuff anyways. Speaking of Paris Hilton, she has a new show about people competing to become her new best friend. What kind of unconditionally retarded stuff is that. Truly, Kids minds are poisoned in today's society. Another show...From G's to Gents...if they weren't smart enough to make a life for themselves why make one for them. I think its that kids are under the illusion that if you don't have an education its okay, MTV will help you out...

Storm

The only show I've seen that's even remotely constructive to kids on MTV is Made. The kids seem to have genuine progress and really get to expand their opportunities...although I'm sure there's more than meets the eye with that as well. I've seen from G's to Gents, and I don't think it's a coincidence that the ratio of black people to white people was 80/20 and there weren't any other ethnicities represented. I guess only blacks and whites are G's? I'll take stereotypes for 500, please!

[CAPSmith]

The problem is because that can't be measured in dollars and cents, society deems it worthless. We don't even recognize a philosopher as a legitimate professional, which I think is sad. There's a reason Plato wanted philosophers in charge of the State.

The ability to think is only deemed unimportant by those who can't do it. You can find people to fill manufacturing jobs all day, but finding competent leaders is where we as a society are struggling.

There isn't enough emphasis on education. High-schools are considered to be "College Prep," but do so only by teaching to tests. That doesn't teach you to think and certainly does not leave you prepared for the next step. This in my opinion is why the college graduation rates in this country are so abysmal. The other factor is that colleges are turning into profit centers instead of maintaining their status as education centers.

The University of Phoenix for example has both traditional campus and online offerings and can boast the largest enrollment for a single private institution in the world - with over 340,000 students. Their founder is now a billionaire but their graduation rate is only 16% (According to the US Department of Education standards) compared to the average of 55%. Their focus shifted from education to profit.

Getting an education that teaches you how to think will not be found to be detrimental by any potential employer, so long as you can convey what you know and apply the knowledge you have. If anything you will have more possibilities because of your flexibility. Anyone who knows anything will appreciate your course of study and realize its value to society.

[StormCrow]

I think that the best way for young people to learn is in a similar manner to how Robin Williams did it in the film The Dead Poets Society. By illustrating to the students more than just lecturing or testing. I don't understand why people think that by doing more testing you are helping a student. Some people like myself are not very good test takers. Its proven fact. I mean if you really want to gauge a students success, have him pick someone in the real world to shadow and see what he gets from it and how it will affect his life decisions. Then you will see if the message is getting through.

Storm

[SlightlyCatholic]

I think that the best way for young people to learn is in a similar manner to how Robin Williams did it in the film The Dead Poets Society. By illustrating to the students more than just lecturing or testing. I don't understand why people think that by doing more testing you are helping a student. Some people like myself are not very good test takers. Its proven fact. I mean if you really want to gauge a students success, have him pick someone in the real world to shadow and see what he gets from it and how it will affect his life decisions. Then you will see if the message is getting through.

Storm


People like tests because they do two things- 1) they allow you to see concretely who performs better than who and 2) they allow the person administering the test to have a quantifiable means of guaging a student's understanding and retention of the material tested upon. However, there are problems with both of these goals. Some people are bad test takers, and God forbid you're sick on the day of your SATs, you may not get into the college you want. The problem with the second goal is the fact that some students are great memorizers and can get through entire tests by merely regurgitating information onto a piece of paper without understanding any of it. I strongly believe in oral exams- they're simple and they allow the individual to really convey their true level of understanding regarding the material being tested upon.

[StormCrow]

Thats why I think that it is critical that the students be able to demonstrate a hands on understanding on the knowledge that they receive, because their are dumb people that like you said, memorize the answers, and graduate with flying colors, but can't tell you how to put a nail in a wall.

Storm

[FeelinFroggy]

It's blatantly obvious we all share in the opinion that it's a fact OUR country is in a "mess"(Understatement of the century). My biggest fear is the impact it will have on our children's children, and so forth. Sometimes I feel guilty having to leave my family fighting in a war of their own financially, just so I can go fight a war that protects the rights of not only my fellow Americans(which I gladly swore to do), but the "rights" of illegals as well.

Sticks in my craw.

[SlightlyCatholic]

It's blatantly obvious we all share in the opinion that it's a fact OUR country is in a "mess"(Understatement of the century). My biggest fear is the impact it will have on our children's children, and so forth. Sometimes I feel guilty having to leave my family fighting in a war of their own financially, just so I can go fight a war that protects the rights of not only my fellow Americans(which I gladly swore to do), but the "rights" of illegals as well.

Sticks in my craw.

I wouldn't be surprised if there were a huge breakdown in American linguistics in the next fifty years. The English language is under attack from things like text messaging and email, and a lot of immigrants now just choose not to learn it. Spelling, grammar, and punctuation (as well as writing skills) simply aren't being taught the way they used to be. A lot of the reason this is happening is because we've eliminated public speaking from our list of skills to learn. Why talk to someone face to face if they can just text or email?

It just makes me sick, because I love to write and I can see the entire concept of English composition going right down the toilet.

[PaulR]

How does an illegal immigrant get to university anyway ?

Indeed... That is my question. How do they manage to get:

1. Free education(university level)
2. Free health care
3. Free assisted living(welfare, Social Security Checks, WIC, and etc)
4. Free ticket to walk all over tax paying people like ourselves, as if we owe them something?

They are criminals... No matter the reason, they illegally SNUCK into our country!!! It does not get any more blatant than that.

I am faced with the fact that despite my career in the military, I may never get things like the social security check THAT I PAID INTO ALL MY LIFE(as estimates place the social security as bankrupt by the time I am eligible). At least my family and I will be covered medically(unless Congress whittles more away from retiree benefits to fund programs the illegals will benefit from) and get my pension check. I am also looking at the fact that my kids(or even me for that matter) will not get the free college degree these aliens get. This whole topic really chaps my a$$ and neither political party seems to be willing to do anything about it.

Every time I hear on the radio of a crime or an automobile accident(involving unlicensed illegal aliens driving illegally) with fatalities being committed by someone who does not belong here, I want to pull my hair out(what little I have remaining)! You would think that when these people are caught committing a crime(on top of the one already committed by their presence) they would be deported... NNNOOOOOOO.... They are a further burden as they will take up space and more money in our already overtaxed penal system. 33%(some stats quote numbers as high as 40%) of inmates in our penal system are ILLEGAL immigrants!! ( http://www.theamericanresistance.com/articles/art2004jan04.html ) There are a lot of verifiable statistics on that site. I checked on a few of them.

In my humble opinion, I feel that these criminals should be stripped of every US government hand out except for EMERGENCY LIFESAVING procedures, a transit ticket, and enough food and water to get them to their country of origin. There is nothing inhumane about this. The cheap way to do this is to wait until they get pulled over for speeding or commit some crime or even check into a hospital. Let them come to us!

Sorry about my tone. I have a cold kicking my butt and the combination of the psuedophedrine and this topic does not react well with me. I am tired of giving benefits I will never be the recipient of to people who dont belong here!