Jeff Davis Birthday

[Lee Ragan]

On this date in 1808, Jefferson Davis was born in Kentucky. A West Pointer, he bacame a hero in the Mexican War as Colonel of a Mississippi Rifle Regiment. He was later Secretary of War and a U.S. Senator. In 1861, he was elected President of the Confederate States of America even tho he didn't seek the job. He was the only president of the CSA and his six year term was cut short by the end of the War for Southern Independence.
Love him or hate him, he was an American original.

[MOM]

http://www.southerncause.com/eCart/images/officers/JeffersonDavis.gif

[TheLegalShark]

I find it strange that on a site populated by military veterans and patriots that Jeff Davis' birthday warrants any notice. The man was a traitor, he betrayed his country plain and simple and sat at the head of an armed rebellion against it. He should have died for that. As far as I'm concerned he occupies the same category of people as Benedict Arnold.

[ang1sgt]

I find it strange that on a site populated by military veterans and patriots that Jeff Davis' birthday warrants any notice. The man was a traitor, he betrayed his country plain and simple and sat at the head of an armed rebellion against it. He should have died for that. As far as I'm concerned he occupies the same category of people as Benedict Arnold.

And you can thank those that have served and fought for freedoms that you now enjoy, Like freedom of Speech.

There is no deny that Jefferson Davis was a great Military Man. While you see him as a traitor, many look at him and study him to see what tactics and strategies might be able to be used today.

Some people study history to broaden their horizon, while some ignore it all together.

[SlightlyCatholic]

I find it strange that on a site populated by military veterans and patriots that Jeff Davis' birthday warrants any notice. The man was a traitor, he betrayed his country plain and simple and sat at the head of an armed rebellion against it. He should have died for that. As far as I'm concerned he occupies the same category of people as Benedict Arnold.

I know people who call the Civil War the "War of Northern Aggression"...I've also spoken to people who don't know it's over yet. If you want a thrill, go to the Deep South and tell everyone how great General Sherman is. Let the fun begin! :devil:

[Desert Sapper]

I think you have to look a little deeper at the Federalization of our nation before you start to point fingers at some very educated and intelligent men that took a stand for what they believed in. Many of them, to include Robert E. Lee (who, I might add, was the first man Lincoln asked to lead the Army of the Potomac), felt that they were walking in the footsteps of the nation's forefathers when they stood with their states over the federal government.

Many felt the fed had become too powerful and that the states needed to have more freedom. Given that the 'United States' were brought together in agreement, and signed a document that bound them to one another, it was thought by some that the binding points of the agreement needed to remain mutually agreeable to remain valid. This was partly what some states used to secede from the union, famously drawing from the Declaration of Independence:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

It is not a foreign concept to our country.

[AFCadetSteel]

To quote Federalist 28, Paragraph 6

If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no resource left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers, may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual state. In a single state, if the persons intrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair. The usurpers, clothed with the forms of legal authority, can too often crush the opposition in embryo. The smaller the extent of the territory, the more difficult will it be for the people to form a regular or systematic plan of opposition, and the more easy will it be to defeat their early efforts. Intelligence can be more speedily obtained of their preparations and movements, and the military force in the possession of the usurpers can be more rapidly directed against the part where the opposition has begun. In this situation there must be a peculiar coincidence of circumstances to insure success to the popular resistance.

And just my opinion, the South could have easily won as the North did, and if going by LegalSharks point of view, we would all be traitors if im not mistaken.

[MOM]

Benedict Arnold does not even come close to being comparable to Jefferson Davis.
That's apples to oranges.

I love what Dessert Sapper posted - that was well said.

[Desert Sapper]

The south could have won but for a few minor details:

1. No major industry to fuel the war effort in the way of munitions (the north had this in abundance).

2. No easy source of replacement Soldiers (the north had irish immigrants they could draft -- the south could have freed enough slaves to make this work in their favor, but they didn't).

3. Lee still thought as Napoleon both tactically and operationally. This worked from the operational perspective and created some successful campaigns. To a point, it even worked tactically. However, technology had superseded Napoleonic strategy, and it cost Lee, especially at Gettysburg, where on the final day of the battle, Lee lost a huge percentage of his Soldiers due to the range of Union cannons.


I think the South might have won had they, as Harry Turtledove postulated in 'Guns of the South', had time-traveling South Africans provide them with AK-47s. :p

[Machine]

I find it strange that on a site populated by military veterans and patriots that Jeff Davis' birthday warrants any notice. The man was a traitor, he betrayed his country plain and simple and sat at the head of an armed rebellion against it. He should have died for that. As far as I'm concerned he occupies the same category of people as Benedict Arnold.

Your signature line requires modification. Maybe something like, "I'm a public school graduate and therefore consider myself intelligent, regardless of facts."

Davis was arrested, never charged, tried, or convicted.

[TheLegalShark]

If your statement refers to high school, it doesn't matter. I am a college graduate that is currently attending law school. I am also well aware that Davis was never charged, nor was he tried for any crime after his arrest. In my personal opinion, he should have been tried for treason, convicted, and sent to the gallows.

[MOM]

I have an education and the ability to think critically, therefore I am a Liberal

Current sig line says it all.

[Lee Ragan]

Current sig line says it all.
Amen! Maybe if our young, college educated friend would do some independent research and not depend on the politically correct textbooks provided by the education system of this country, he would see the truth.
Up until the War for Southern Independence came along, most folks believed that free states that freely joined the union, reserved the right to leave. In the 1820's some New England states considered it! Those people realized that the will of a free people trumps any government created by men.
Remember, the CSA never tried to overthrow the government of the United States; they just wanted to leave and form a country with a government to suit them. The majoity of southerners, including Jeff Davis felt like they were protecting their homes from an invader.
I can understand why most southerners of the time felt the way they did. If Texas was attacked by the other 49 states, I would try to defend Texas because it is my home (and has been the home to my family since 1835).

[Machine]

I am a college graduate that is currently attending law school.

And this qualifies you how? Try your enlightened revisionism on somebody else.

In my personal opinion, he should have been tried for treason, convicted, and sent to the gallows.

Oh. Well. Excuse me. I was unaware, in my high school only stupidity that your personal opinion overrides the Constitution. In my opinion, you should STFU until you understand the law.

[Ben Shotalot]

TheLegalShark-

Just out of curiosity, your profile says that your location is "PRC".

Is that the "People's Republic of China" or the "People's Republic of California"?

:recon:

[Machine]

TheLegalShark-

Just out of curiosity, your profile says that your location is "PRC".

Is that the "People's Republic of China" or the "People's Republic of California"?

:recon:


Pork Research Council

Postal Regulatory Commission

Pesticide Residue Commitee

Politically Rectal Circulation

[Walker]

The Southern states defending themselves after seceding is certainly a valid argument, had the legal status of human beings not been at issue.

Yes, it was a states' rights issue, yes, they were rebelling against federal involvement in the affairs of state governments, but that doesn't excuse the fact that their secession was in large part due to the fact that they didn't agree with being told that slavery was made illegal. Sure the legislation was going to bankrupt the livelihood of many states outright, but the ownership of one human by another brooks no argument. Had this been about anything short of that, the war never would've happened, in my opinion.

As to Jefferson Davis's status as a traitor, you're dead wrong. His motivations were noble, as were those of Lee and others, and their counterparts in the North. And if the South had won, well, we'd be two countries still... Halfway decent diplomatic relations would've developed in short order, and guess what? All the self righteous twats up here wouldn't have balked at buying cheap tobacco and cotton goods from there, even knowing how it was made...

[Machine]

Come now. Slavery wasn't outlawed until Amendment 13 in 65. The abolition of slavery became a war issue due to the SOB Lincoln having his ass handed to him early on in the war. The Emancipation Proclamation didn't come around until January of 63, almost three years in. Slavery, as evil as it was/is, was no reason for the Yankee invasion of the South, no more so than Atta's convesation with an Iraqi mall cop was reason to invade iraq for 9-11.
But hey, those that win get to write the history books, so no surprise that we all grew up getting taught that the evil South got beat down for owning slaves, and that no other nation in the history of the planet killed 600,000 of its own citizens to set them free.

[TheLegalShark]

TheLegalShark-

Just out of curiosity, your profile says that your location is "PRC".

Is that the "People's Republic of China" or the "People's Republic of California"?

:recon:

I am currently doing an overseas study program in the People's Republic of China.

[Woody]

Why bring Arnold Benidict into this argument sure he made some mistakes when he was younger but eventually came to his senses:devil:.
Slavery was part of the civil war .The north could survive without it the souths economy was dependent on it.Unfortunatly all the arguments about the Souths justification does come back to the slave question.

[DSEddie]

I'm not sure I understand the last sentence in your post, Woody. The Souths justification for what? Because if you are referring to why the south fought, it was not because of slavery. It was over states rights.

[Walker]

Yes Eddie, a state's right (under Nullification) to ignore federal law outright. Especially handy when it came to deciding whether a new state allowed slavery or not (czech out Bleeding Kansas when you get a chance). This wasn't about beer sales on Sunday...

[Desert Sapper]

Did Union troops march on the South? Yes. But who fired the first shots? Let me ask this...if we had a garrison off the coast of Yemen, the government broke all diplomatic ties with us, then fired shots on our garrison, what would we do?

Walker is correct. I said it before, and I'll say it again. The Civil War was about money, plain and simple. States that depended on a constantly replenishing (and largely free) labor source feared losing tremendously from the abolition of slavery. So, instead, they fought a war that lasted nearly four years, cost nearly 700,000 lives, and obliterated the economic base of the South. Way to go, South Carolina.

[Walker]

Did Union troops march on the South? Yes. But who fired the first shots? Let me ask this...if we had a garrison off the coast of Yemen, the government broke all diplomatic ties with us, then fired shots on our garrison, what would we do?

Walker is correct. I said it before, and I'll say it again. The Civil War was about money, plain and simple. States that depended on a constantly replenishing (and largely free) labor source feared losing tremendously from the abolition of slavery. So, instead, they fought a war that lasted nearly four years, cost nearly 700,000 lives, and obliterated the economic base of the South. Way to go, South Carolina.

Awesome™.

*spamfilter*

[DSEddie]

We can all armchair QB here in the year 2009, but if you honestly believe that every single member of the Confederate Army was fighting to be able to keep their slaves, you are wrong. Many of them were uneducated, and when their elected politicians said that the North was infringing on their rights, they got mad and were willing to fight. The politicians may have done what they did to keep their slave labor, but the average Confederate soldier was fighting for his rights, plain and simple.

[Frag Sleeve]

On this date in 1808, Jefferson Davis was born in Kentucky. A West Pointer, he bacame a hero in the Mexican War as Colonel of a Mississippi Rifle Regiment. He was later Secretary of War and a U.S. Senator. In 1861, he was elected President of the Confederate States of America even tho he didn't seek the job. He was the only president of the CSA and his six year term was cut short by the end of the War for Southern Independence.
Love him or hate him, he was an American original.



.....funny....we just built a fire truck for him in Louisiana...

[Desert Sapper]

For those of you that refuse to believe that the issues of states' rights and slavery are connected, I'd like to draw all of your attention to the Crittenden Compromise of 1860. It should shed some light on the why of Southern secession.

Crittenden Compromise (http://americancivilwar.com/documents/crittenden_compromise.html)

Lincoln actually did say that he would not interfere with the institution of slavery in the states that it existed in. However, South Carolina freaked out, jumped the gun to secede, and forced the Union to do something.

By 1862, it made perfect political sense to try to threaten the seceding states to return to the union or face the freeing of their slaves (the primary source of their labor, and hence their war coffers). By 1863, it made even more sense to declare that those slaves in those states were free, as the slave states did not return, and it was merely following up on the original proclamation. I don't know if Lincoln intended to free the slaves all along. He certainly didn't seem to intend to. But he did. And I, for one, am glad that he made the emancipation proclamation, which led to the 13th Amendment, which made America a (mostly) free country.

[Bamaabiff]

I find it strange that on a site populated by military veterans and patriots that Jeff Davis' birthday warrants any notice. The man was a traitor, he betrayed his country plain and simple and sat at the head of an armed rebellion against it. He should have died for that. As far as I'm concerned he occupies the same category of people as Benedict Arnold.

History is written by the winners. Had we lost the War for American Indpendence, we would be viewing Arnold as a hero for re-joining the British rather than as a traitor. Jefferson Davis stood for something he felt was right, whether you agree with it or not.

I kind of figured that you, being a liberal, would jump up and down on here saying that Jefferson Davis had the right to think for himself and, even though you disagree with his motives, that we should respect his right to do so.


I am publicly educated and also have a college degree, therefore I think for myself and know that not everything said by the liberal media or my college professors is true.

[PhilK]

I am publicly educated and also have a college degree, therefore I think for myself and know that not everything said by the liberal media or my college proffessors is true.


Ummm...you realize you misspelled "professors" right?

[Walker]

Quick point... Mods, any chance you could state a reason for your editing of member posts; it's a little confusing to see a Mod edit and not know why.

[Bamaabiff]

Ummm...you realize you misspelled "professors" right?

It happens...thanks for the heads-up though. I corrected it. Sadly, spelling and English have always been my strong suit, besides History.

[Bamaabiff]

Quick point... Mods, any chance you could state a reason for your editing of member posts; it's a little confusing to see a Mod edit and not know why.

It might be, Walker, because I had screwed up when I was trying to enlargen my font to size six. I believe BillyD was just trying to fix what I was initially trying to do.

[Machine]

Less that 5% of Southerons owned slaves. Hardly a large enough group to sell a war. One of the wealthiest and largest plantation owners in Louisiana, dammit her name escapes me at the moment, was black. Do a google search on black Confederates. Some of you are trying to make this out to be a race thing and you are right to a point. Lincoln wanted nothing to do with free blacks, offered to send them home, encouraged black leaders of the time such as Fred Douglass to lead by example and go to Liberia. Hate to break it to you blind patriots, but your government is fully capable of being just as evil as those you are fighting now.
Cotton was the oil of the day. The South was the cash cow of the nation, and when it was suggested that Lincoln let the South peacefully dissolve the ties with the Union, he replied, "Let the South go? Where then will we get our revenues?"

Walker, Sapper, LegalShark, get aholt of a few books, starting with When in the Course of Human Events, then move on to The Real Lincoln.

[Desert Sapper]

Less that 5% of Southerons owned slaves. Hardly a large enough group to sell a war. One of the wealthiest and largest plantation owners in Louisiana, dammit her name escapes me at the moment, was black. Do a google search on black Confederates. Some of you are trying to make this out to be a race thing and you are right to a point. Lincoln wanted nothing to do with free blacks, offered to send them home, encouraged black leaders of the time such as Fred Douglass to lead by example and go to Liberia. Hate to break it to you blind patriots, but your government is fully capable of being just as evil as those you are fighting now.
Cotton was the oil of the day. The South was the cash cow of the nation, and when it was suggested that Lincoln let the South peacefully dissolve the ties with the Union, he replied, "Let the South go? Where then will we get our revenues?"

Walker, Sapper, LegalShark, get aholt of a few books, starting with When in the Course of Human Events, then move on to The Real Lincoln.


What the hell is a Southeron?;)

I don't disagree that the majority of southerners believed they were fighting for 'states' rights', but that is just as delusional as believing we have an alliance with Israel because of its strategic importance to the region, or that we went to war with Iraq and Afghanistan over freedom and democracy. The bottom line is that the elite few have always governed and have always determined when the blood of the masses will be spilled. The reasons are always the same: 1. Power 2. Money 3. Power.

There was a huge moralist movement in Congress starting well before 1860 to make slavery illegal. This would never have happened for the reasons I already enumerated. We had a power and money base from our cash crop in the South and a huge FREE labor force. The issue is that the state of South Carolina completely lost its cool (No way!) and forced the hand of everybody else.

Again, I reiterate that this was an issue of power and money. Nothing more. Southern patriotism is almost as ignorant as anybody in the North that insinuates that southerners were evil for maintaining the institution of slavery for so long. The bottom line is that it was maintained by all relevant parties.

God had a different plan. South Carolina unwittingly assisted. Lincoln indirectly benefited, especially when it comes to his legacy. Although, it could also be argued that Lincoln was assassinated for his inheritance. So, it's kind of a double edged sword, wouldn't you say?

[Machine]

Glad you see fit to finally agree with me Sapper.;)

[Saint Marc]

Machine! Hahahaha they finally nailed HE and 03! What's up buddy?
I'm back in the US for a few weeks. Give me a ring. I'm a Blackberry carrying fagget now, hahaha. Man I hate the modern world. You can't even prank call anymore because of called ID.
Jeff Davis, I know his great, great and great grandson Bertram Hayes-Davis. Good guy. Jeff is the true president of the South.
BTW slavery is a necessary evil. We have slaves today, they work for min wage. But they are no less a slave class. I think slavery is fine as long as the slave has the opprotunity to rise in skill, class and wages to middle class or the ranks of the rich.
Funny how the EU says America was built on the backs of slaves, yet they fail to see their nations were built on the backs of their own ancestors enslaved by ruthless kings.
Somebody has to do the crappy work. Just how life is. I did my share of shitty jobs, but if you keep striving in the US, you break free eventually. In Louisiana the lergest plantations were owned by free blacks and some served as Confederate officers and men.
God Bless the South!

[CAPSmith]

I think slavery is fine as long as the slave has the opprotunity to rise in skill, class and wages to middle class or the ranks of the rich.

Someone who is poor isn't owned by somebody else. They aren't the property of whomever the highest bidder was. Our working poor at least have the option of leaving their poor paying crappy jobs if they so choose without fear of retribution or death.

[Saint Marc]

Reall y now CPT?
Look there is a cast system that exists. Mexicans who pick our fruit are just slaves. They can pick your fruit or mine. If they want they can gain citizenship and toil at Burger King or a Hotel and save and attend a school to gain a skill to push them into the middle class which is more of an artisan class with broader freedoms and quality of life and maybe they might invest well and end up rich? Maybe?
But slavery must exist, somone has to do the shitty jobs and a class that does them must exist. And they do. Now if paying them subsistance wages eases your mind then fine.

The bible advocates slavery. You are a soldier, you are an endentured servant and by far are not a free man by any real definition. So was I at one time. I broke free with the guidance of Redleg. I've been in all 3 classes I mentioned. Now the wealthy class isn't as free as you'd think. Middle Class was the happiest time of my life and the time I felt most free. Now I have responsibilities I cannot shrug without it affecting very good and loyal people who depend on me. Now that you might understand as an officer though you are endentured, and you shall not always be.

I like our system, it allows the poor, the dirty work class the opprotunity to rise, I'm proof of it. I've worked in fields and now, well I'm doing pretty good. If only my old chain of command who told me I'd never amount to more than a Wal-Mart employee could see me now.

I'm willing to help others make it too, that is another beauty about our system, if you show the will to rise, there are people who have made it who will help you rise as well.

But someone has to pick the fruit, toil the fields and clean the messes up. Slavery isn't abuse either. Read a book by Sir Arthur Freemantle called 3 Months in the Southern States. American blacks in the South owned firearms and hunted on weekends. You'll find his accounts disturbing no doubt.

[CAPSmith]

Reall y now CPT?
Look there is a cast system that exists. Mexicans who pick our fruit are just slaves. They can pick your fruit or mine. If they want they can gain citizenship and toil at Burger King or a Hotel and save and attend a school to gain a skill to push them into the middle class which is more of an artisan class with broader freedoms and quality of life and maybe they might invest well and end up rich? Maybe?
But slavery must exist, somone has to do the shitty jobs and a class that does them must exist. And they do. Now if paying them subsistance wages eases your mind then fine.

The bible advocates slavery. You are a soldier, you are an endentured servant and by far are not a free man by any real definition. So was I at one time. I broke free with the guidance of Redleg. I've been in all 3 classes I mentioned. Now the wealthy class isn't as free as you'd think. Middle Class was the happiest time of my life and the time I felt most free. Now I have responsibilities I cannot shrug without it affecting very good and loyal people who depend on me. Now that you might understand as an officer though you are endentured, and you shall not always be.

I like our system, it allows the poor, the dirty work class the opprotunity to rise, I'm proof of it. I've worked in fields and now, well I'm doing pretty good. If only my old chain of command who told me I'd never amount to more than a Wal-Mart employee could see me now.

I'm willing to help others make it too, that is another beauty about our system, if you show the will to rise, there are people who have made it who will help you rise as well.

But someone has to pick the fruit, toil the fields and clean the messes up. Slavery isn't abuse either. Read a book by Sir Arthur Freemantle called 3 Months in the Southern States. American blacks in the South owned firearms and hunted on weekends. You'll find his accounts disturbing no doubt.

There really is different words for things because they are indeed different. Not because somebody is trying to make anyone feel better. A slave is someone who was purchased/traded/whatever and is owned by another individual. They have no choice in the matter of what their task is, what their wage is or whether or not they can leave.

An indentured servant is a contractual obligation. You are free to not enter into the contract if you so choose. Different than slavery.

Poor people are neither slaves nor indentured servants. While they may be limited to their choices of what jobs they can get, they have options to do as they please. If they want to leave their job (family obligations aside) they are free to do so. If they are unhappy with what their trade is, they are free to switch.

While the jobs may not be the most prestigious and the pay not the highest, the working poor in our country can at least claim that they are free men who can decide what to do with their lives.

Also, the bible does not advocate slavery anymore than it advocates women be seen and not heard. You can't quote one line and twist it to your own devices. Everything in context my friend, everything in context.

PS: I'm not a Captain or in the military.

[Saint Marc]

There really is different words for things because they are indeed different. Not because somebody is trying to make anyone feel better.
Poppycock!
My field or yours, my factory or yous, the classes in them are the same. I told you, I like our system of choice. A man can choose to rise or stay in the ranks based on his will and skill.

BTW the war was not fought to free slaves. It came about due to Taxation and Tarriffs placed on Southern cotton bound for England.

[CAPSmith]

There really is different words for things because they are indeed different. Not because somebody is trying to make anyone feel better.
Poppycock!
My field or yours, my factory or yous, the classes in them are the same. I told you, I like our system of choice. A man can choose to rise or stay in the ranks based on his will and skill.

BTW the war was not fought to free slaves. It came about due to Taxation and Tarriffs placed on Southern cotton bound for England.

Just like that credit card offers that you throw out in the mail, "terms and conditions apply." They might be the same field, owned by the same person, but the difference is that the "employee" has the opportunity to leave if they see fit.

I like our system too. But the difference is exactly what you say - "A man can choose to rise or stay in the ranks"

[Bamaabiff]

BTW the war was not fought to free slaves. It came about due to Taxation and Tarriffs placed on Southern cotton bound for England.

Bingo. When you're right, you're right.

[Saint Marc]

Jefferson Davis was an American hero and champion of the Constitution. The North knew this and this was the reason he never went to trial. On the principle of law he'd won hands down and the South would have had to be recognized as a free country.
Davis didn't want war, but he didn't shrugg it either. 300 plus thousand Northerners died and still lay in our fields at the hands of superior Southern marksmen.
Lincoln was in with the bankers much like this Obama asshole is. The North didn't like slavery, yet they forced immigrants into conscription to fight a war they themselves had little interest in fighting in themselves. Jeff and Lee tried an honorable peace after the war, but guys like Nathan Bedford couldn't live under the enemies terms and formed the KKK as a guerilla unit. And it was the KKK and the election of Rutherford B. Hayes that ended Yankee occupation and martial law in the south.

The slavery issue is the only leg the Unionists have to stand on and it is a strawman argument. Hell the industrial revolution would have ended black slavery, child slavery was better and that followed until hell nearly froze over. Yep we fought a war to free blacks the yankee says, but Billy went to the orphanages and put kids in sweat shops and worked them to death LEGALLY! So fk you and your 3rd grade understanding of the big picture concerning the Big War.

I come from a long line of Confederates who were not one bit sorry for their service. I served in the federal ranks, but I knew who I was, what I was and where my true loyalty was at all times. Yeah the scary flag was proudly displayed on my jeep and in my room. That was back when we had more freedom in the military and before the major socialist agendas were pushed.

So don't hand me your righteous views on the North, those assholes just wanted to flip a nickle and they were hating on the south because the south had it all and all they had was filthy cities, hookers, booze and rotton food and piss smelling streets. They were like Europe basically.

I know the descendants of Jefferson Davis, all good and stand up people of the community. Very active in helping the poor and things race doesn't matter.
One more thing and think good on this, those who would allow themselves to be enslaved probably deserve to be enslaved. No man can really keep another down if MLK is correct in saying all Animals are Equal.

[Lee Ragan]

[QUOTE=Desert Sapper;24349]What the hell is a Southeron?;)

A "Southeron", is someone from the south. Another word for southerner.

Marc.... Glad to see someone on our side being able to "tell it like it is... and was". You have expressed it better than I could have.

[Saint Marc]

Lee believe it or not I learned all this in a Northern University, well most of it. Plus I used to speak from time to time with the Presidents posterity. Real good people. Want to really get into some knots look into the railroads and their pressuring Lincoln to manuver the south into war. Wars are about money, plain and simple, well smart wars anyway.
Too many things and agendas followed the defeat of the South. Also remember the South never surrendered the government, Jeff refused, Lee surrendered an army, that was it. Technically the South is still a free country.
Dixielander Bliebt Frie(SP).
But like the seal said, God will avenge us. He has, look around, the north is falling apart, it's government bankrupt of funds and morals, in due time, in due time.
I drew the line when a few years ago I saw the media and school turn on Bobby Lee. After that I decided to fight fire with fire. Bobby Lee was a terrorist? Okay lets look at MLK your hero and his plagerism and communist connections at a time we were at war with the Reds. I enjoy that debate well.

[Desert Sapper]

I can agree with elements of your statement, Marc. The war was fought about money, beyond any shadow of doubt, but to say that the 'North had nothing' is pretty ignorant. It was the industrial base of the North that funded the war machine that defeated the south in July of 1863. That's right. 1863. If the Union had strong leadership in charge of the Army of the Potomac (instead of just at the Corps and below level), they would have pursued Lee's defeated ass after Gettysburg, and the war would have been over. Instead it dragged on for two more miserable years.

I think it's silly to glorify the Klan as a 'guerrilla movement'. It has always been nothing more than a garbage organization focused on brainwashing its followers into believing one man is less than another because of his religion or skin color. It's a hate group and always has been. Forrest helped strengthen the Klan to (in his words, not mine) 'keep the N*****s in their place'. They may have done some work to keep the carpet-baggers out, but it isn't as if the occupation of the south was in any way stopped because of their efforts. Progress was hindered and the South was kept in the dark ages for the next 100 years, but the organization in no way helped the South. You're starting to make me think you stand for their twisted ideals.

King isn't a hero because of the writing in his speeches, he's a hero for his leadership. He's a hero because he stood up to the retardation of progress by bigots and hate-minded fools (in both the South and the North). King didn't stoop to the level of his counterpart, Malcolm X, and resort to violence. His followers admirably stood up to adversity in the way of Gandhi, passively resisting, and they brought our country together.

Like it or not, we don't live in the Confederate States of America. We live in the United States of America. We are stronger as a united country, and all this discussion of disunity and the South versus the North is counterproductive. Make a difference in your community and your nation instead of sitting back and making offhand comments about its degradation. There is much work to be done, and there are legitimate avenues to make it better.

Moral degradation is not exclusive to the North (nor the 'Left Coast'). It's nationwide and just as prevalent in the megachurches of the Bible Belt as in the Federal Offices in the beltway. Money and power corrupt men faster than anything else, and once it takes hold, slavery is the end state (but not for the uneducated masses - for the corrupted leader). I would love to see the trend reverse its course, but it looks like we are well on our way to the fate of Rome. And I fail to see how secessionist idealogies will help prevent that. It will only help expedite it if such theories were to reach full fruition.

[Bamaabiff]

I think it's silly to glorify the Klan as a 'guerrilla movement'. It has always been nothing more than a garbage organization focused on brainwashing its followers into believing one man is less than another because of his religion or skin color. It's a hate group and always has been. Forrest helped strengthen the Klan to (in his words, not mine) 'keep the N*****s in their place'. They may have done some work to keep the carpet-baggers out, but it isn't as if the occupation of the south was in any way stopped because of their efforts. Progress was hindered and the South was kept in the dark ages for the next 100 years, but the organization in no way helped the South. You're starting to make me think you stand for their twisted ideals.



One of the Klan's original purposes, and the reason Forrest became their first leader, was to see to it that Confederate veterans were not left to rot by their union counterparts. In other words, he wanted to form a veteran's association for Confederate soldiers. If you would actually research Forrest, you would find that not only did he leave the Klan when it started using violent tactics, but he also continued to work for Confederate soldier's benefits for the rest of his life.

P.S. Forrest did not actually create the Ku Klux Klan. Some of his subordinate officers did. When they approached Forrest with their problems and their idea as to how to rectify it, he said he would be honored to represent them as their first leader. The Klan of the 1860's is not the Klan of the 1930's.

[Saint Marc]

Desert Sapper! Finally a man I can converse with on this. NB used the language of his time. I don't think I ever have been in the company of any Southern white who has not said similar one on one at some point in my life. I left the south and was educated in the north btw.

There have been 3 Klans and all were different over the years. During Reconstruction they fought a nighttime campaign issuing reprisals against Union soldiers, scalawags and carpet baggers who abused the Southern people so badly even the Yankee government issued the Posse Cumitatus (sp) to prevent the acts that occurred under occupation from ever happening again. That Klan was not exactly clean, but it was all my ancestors had. We had no voice in the courts, there was no voting and your property was the occupying authorities to include your wives and daughters. NB Forrest also had an all black personal armed guard detachment called..... The Green Berets. Who charged into battle with him and killed Yankees. Yep southern blacks fought the Union. And like Iraq a small force pinned the green machine to the wall over and over and the Union is still playing musical generals. They don't learn, that is the nature of the yankee. The second Klan was in the 20's and 30's, much more of a political party than history wants to admit. The largest group was in Ohio then and really the Klan then was just a fad like being a biker is today. The bad Klan everyone pictures in their tiny public school brains today is the white trash Klan of the 1950's. Killing blacks for voting and Jews for registering them to vote was stupid and really stigmatized the South and the war and everything Southern. I'm glad to see some of those assholes brought to justice today. I don't believe in killing people for wanting their freedom, yankees do that sort of thing. I don't believe in killing a man for the color of his skin either nor denying him his rights once he has attained the status of citizen.
I think slavery was poorly instituted and could have been instituted better in the USA. We didn't need a war to end it either. After a period of say 8 years allow a man to learn a trade and let him free and compensate him upon his departure would have been the right thing to do.
Had the South gave into the Merrill Tariff blacks would have remained ens laved until 1910 or so I'd guess?
I also hate how the Confederate flag gets beat down when the US flag gets a free pass. How many Indian women and babies were ran through under that flag? Yet there is no shame associated with it. How many Klan units carried the US flag along with the Battle flag? All of them, yet the flag of Dixie is demonized. Hell I saw a Klan clip on the net showing the dumb asses carrying the Nazi flag recently, the Klan is full of idiots since the 30's with no direction, probably led by the Feds secretly to catch the real dangerous asses. So you won't see me defend the post 1878 units. Grand Wizards and Dragons, wtf is that all about anyway? The Confederates fought long and hard and from the heart and made some staggering victories the modern military studies today over and over. They didn't tolerate Generals like Sherman. They don't have those stains on them.
As for the we and us? Yeah sure today we can be we and us and together to a point. We are after all cousins. But Jeff Davis was a good man, I think had Lincoln not been killed our history and national condition centered on racism would be quite different and healthier today.
It was a shame logically that Lincoln was killed for the South. When he was killed the radical Republicans really sowed the deep seeds of hate that linger today.
One thing is for sure there never has been a Bobby Lee since or a Jeff Davis.
I'm watching Western Civilization crumble everyday I open the papers or log onto the net. I know Jeff and Lee were doing what the founders intended, I know it would have prolonged slavery, but I also know our nation would not have been destroyed and after the machine age entered we'd reunified happily. You can't force a relationship.;)
Oh and no I've never been a member of the KKK, or skinheads or any of that bullshit. I'm too high class and have too much self esteem for that low class trash. I got me a Chinese wife too. One reason I never joined the League they dislike interracial breeding, dumb asses blind to the fact 40% of them have Indian blood in them. One thing I hate about the south is just that, they aren't quick to change when it is in their best interests. But that's cool, I can still love the South, my ancestors and history and symbols of heritage even with a Chinese wife. I wish we had a pro-southern organization that embraced blacks, it would really be useful politically and for healing. I just don't know how many people are ready for that yet on both sides. The north can pretty much got to hell though. Disunity? Well it is what it is. I seriously work hard enough, dude you just don't know. Let Obama fix it, he said he could do it. I'm just paying my taxes for now on and going fishing in my free time.

One more thing to add, if the war was to free slaves, then perhaps Black History needs to honor the 350,000 white boys sent to southern fields to die for their freedom? Just saying.
And yeah I like dredging up crap to get minds thinking.

[Saint Marc]

Lets lighten the mood with some humor and continue on after.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZYgXrUSjIshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ot7amDyqbY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ot7amDyqbY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2F-drjUwNU&feature=related

[Saint Marc]

The Industrial base of the north funded nothing, Lincoln took out loans from international bankers. What's funding this war we have going right now? GM? Verizon? Burger King? Hardly, try China and Japan.
You need to follow the money in the war, hell any war and you'll be surpised what turns up. JP Morgan owned the rails in 1860, also really pushed for war with the south and in the end, get this lobbied big bucks to get Jeff Davis released and the Confederate generals pardoned and or released.

Wars are rich mens rackets Desert Sapper, us poor fools have to b/s ourselves with moral sense to go fight while they line their pockets. Right now Congressmen and women are making a buck every time a shot is fired or a soldier is killed or a outhouse is built. It's a sick system. I hate it. The more books I opened the more I traced the money the more I found good European Americans were dupped into national fratracide for the big bankers and industry giants of the day.

Blacks, lets face it, they didn't get crap out of the war. They got token freedom. Their real freedom wasn't given until 1964. Wars is a racket man, but hey you got to make a buck. Funny none of the Bush girls enlisted, even the moron royals in the UK serve on the line until forced by opsec leaks back home.

Yep its all about the cash.

[Desert Sapper]

One of the Klan's original purposes, and the reason Forrest became their first leader, was to see to it that Confederate veterans were not left to rot by their union counterparts. In other words, he wanted to form a veteran's association for Confederate soldiers. If you would actually research Forrest, you would find that not only did he leave the Klan when it started using violent tactics, but he also continued to work for Confederate soldier's benefits for the rest of his life.

I can agree with some of this. Forrest did not start the Klan. He strengthened it, as I mentioned before. And I suppose it depends on your definition of violence. The 'Fort Pillow Massacre' Forrest was certainly not a dainty butterfly. The Klan was a secret organization. Political disaffiliation is not the same as true disaffiliation.

Forrest was a slave trader. He made no bones about his feeling for the black man.

P.S. Forrest did not actually create the Ku Klux Klan. Some of his subordinate officers did. When they approached Forrest with their problems and their idea as to how to rectify it, he said he would be honored to represent them as their first leader. The Klan of the 1860's is not the Klan of the 1930's.

I agree with this, given that it is a matter of historical fact.

NB used the language of his time. I don't think I ever have been in the company of any Southern white who has not said similar one on one at some point in my life.

Me neither, which is part of the problem. The men of the South need to get over it and build bridges. There is way too much latent racism in the white and black south, and especially in the cities of the south. I lived in Hotlanta for 2 years, and that was the most racially divided place I've ever been. It would be nice if everybody could just be more accepting and diversify a little. That would take changing generations of thought, though, so it may be a little bit of a mountain to climb.

There have been 3 Klans and all were different over the years. During Reconstruction they fought a nighttime campaign issuing reprisals against Union soldiers, scalawags and carpet baggers who abused the Southern people so badly even the Yankee government issued the Posse Cumitatus (sp) to prevent the acts that occurred under occupation from ever happening again. That Klan was not exactly clean, but it was all my ancestors had. We had no voice in the courts, there was no voting and your property was the occupying authorities to include your wives and daughters.

Reprisals of the original Klan were far more than reprisals against the Union Soldiers and carpet-baggers. The burning cross didn't just start in the 1950's. Nor did the wearing of white sheets. Nor did the violent actions against folks based on their skin color (the religious stuff started later, I believe). This was about 'protecting the white man', and their was hardly anything honorable about it.


NB Forrest also had an all black personal armed guard detachment called..... The Green Berets. Who charged into battle with him and killed Yankees. Yep southern blacks fought the Union.

Yep. And they were all free men.;)


And like Iraq a small force pinned the green machine to the wall over and over and the Union is still playing musical generals. They don't learn, that is the nature of the yankee.

Easy, hoss. It takes a minute to adjust strategically, but we've done so in Iraq and are doing so in Afghanistan. And you live in the Union, too, and are a veteran of OUR armed forces.


The second Klan was in the 20's and 30's, much more of a political party than history wants to admit. The largest group was in Ohio then and really the Klan then was just a fad like being a biker is today.

Right. A fad that included organized mob hangings and organized racial violence. Just like yuppy bikers.

The bad Klan everyone pictures in their tiny public school brains today is the white trash Klan of the 1950's. Killing blacks for voting and Jews for registering them to vote was stupid and really stigmatized the South and the war and everything Southern.

This I agree with, but it didn't start here. This Klan had been running around for nearly a century by the time of 'Mississippi Burning'. Violent hateful attitudes don't grow overnight.


I'm glad to see some of those assholes brought to justice today. I don't believe in killing people for wanting their freedom, yankees do that sort of thing.

I agree with all but the yankee thing. If nothing else, it's your crazy hippies of the northeast that drive the train on all the social reforms. Much less about killing people for wanting freedom than killing people for not allowing other people their freedom.


I don't believe in killing a man for the color of his skin either nor denying him his rights once he has attained the status of citizen.
I think slavery was poorly instituted and could have been instituted better in the USA. We didn't need a war to end it either. After a period of say 8 years allow a man to learn a trade and let him free and compensate him upon his departure would have been the right thing to do.
Had the South gave into the Merrill Tariff blacks would have remained ens laved until 1910 or so I'd guess?

Slavery is not a good thing, no matter how you look at it. Yes, it would have ended eventually, but it should have ended sooner.


How many Indian women and babies were ran through under that flag? Yet there is no shame associated with it.

None. As far as I know, the stars and stripes with 50 stars was never flown during the Indian Wars.

And it is forever associated with the war of the rebellion against the brits...which we won, to my knowledge.


How many Klan units carried the US flag along with the Battle flag? All of them, yet the flag of Dixie is demonized.
I really think the Confederate Battle Flag is demonized because it was carried by the Klan in their march on Washington, it has been carried by the Klan since then, and it is forever associated with the '50s Klan and the white trash Klan that you mentioned before. You know, the 'bad Klan'. ;)


I think had Lincoln not been killed our history and national condition centered on racism would be quite different and healthier today.
It was a shame logically that Lincoln was killed for the South. When he was killed the radical Republicans really sowed the deep seeds of hate that linger today.
One thing is for sure there never has been a Bobby Lee since or a Jeff Davis.

I definitely agree with all of this. Lincoln's death fomented hate and bitterness (and anti-southern yankeeness) that exists to this day.

Robert Edward Lee was a statesman, a patriot, and a hero. Never was there a finer gentleman or Virginian. He truly lived up to the legacy of his father. And he was top of his class at USMA, a hero of the Mexican War, and one of the most influential superintendants the Academy has ever had.

Jefferson Davis was also a USMA grad, also a hero of the Mexican War, and also a fine gentleman and patriot. His legacy, unfortunately will forever be one of dissenter and miscreant. But, as they say, the victor writes the history books.

[Desert Sapper]

Wars are rich mens rackets Desert Sapper, us poor fools have to b/s ourselves with moral sense to go fight while they line their pockets. Right now Congressmen and women are making a buck every time a shot is fired or a soldier is killed or a outhouse is built. It's a sick system. I hate it. The more books I opened the more I traced the money the more I found good European Americans were dupped into national fratracide for the big bankers and industry giants of the day.

Blacks, lets face it, they didn't get crap out of the war. They got token freedom. Their real freedom wasn't given until 1964. Wars is a racket man, but hey you got to make a buck. Funny none of the Bush girls enlisted, even the moron royals in the UK serve on the line until forced by opsec leaks back home.

Yep its all about the cash.

I agree with pretty much all of this. War is a scheme that makes a ton of money for the corporations involved, who kickback to the congresspeople. I don't have to BS anything. I know the good we can accomplish when we execute the will of our nation. It doesn't take much twisting. The Taliban needed to go in Afghanistan, and Saddam was an arrogant f*** that needed to go down. Regardless of the real reason for our commitment of the military, the rationale used for the public was also mostly legitimate. If you think Saddam didn't have some WMD capability (Chem, bio) you are sorely mistaken. The international community knew it, too, but the French, Russkies, and Germans were getting oil kickbacks from the UN OFF program. And they weren't trading food, either. There is a helluva lot more depth to this, but I don't want to get into it. Suffice it to say that politics have led to this position that 'there were never any WMD -- we were lied to!'. As well, the whole 'we were lied to about water-boarding!' but I digress.

Unfortunately, the Klan and other short-sighted fools kept, as I said before, black people essentially enslaved for 100 years after the war ended. It took some strong people with a vision to stand up to that and make it right. This is why we have a MLK day and why we only have a 'Presidents Day' to partially honor Lincoln. I mentioned before that I think Lincoln stumbled into the greatness of emancipation. He had no original intention of freeing anything. Only of keeping the Union intact.

It's not altogether surprising that the Bush girls did not enlist. The royal family of GB has a long-standing history of at least token leadership in the military. I applaud Harry for volunteering for real duty in Icrack. We, on the other hand, have no such history of presidential progeny servitude.

[TheLegalShark]

Oh. Well. Excuse me. I was unaware, in my high school only stupidity that your personal opinion overrides the Constitution. In my opinion, you should STFU until you understand the law.

Machine,

My apologize for not responding sooner. My personal opinion does not override the constitution but, the opinions and interpretations of people such as myself may dictate how it is implemented. It was not my intention to insult your education. I was simply stating that in my case I don't think pointing and saying "public school graduate" really works. High school in my opinion was a joke. But then again it's not really designed to create critical thinkers. Its main purpose today is to crank out people with enough sense and knowledge to either continue their education or make $7 an hour.

[Saint Marc]

I think it was Jefferson who warned us about going abroad to find monsters to slay. Saddam, where do we start? Saddam was our man and Coinel Ollie North and President "I Killed Communism" Reagan changed all that with the arms for hostages deal that ended up double crossing Saddam. Lots of Iraqi allies at the time died from US steel sent to Iran. So Saddam vowed to get even. Then in 1990 we told him take Kuwait, then no, to get out actually and we then kicked his rear guards ass in 96 hours. It was then he figured he'd fk us with the Euro by tossing the petrol dollar. He wasn't a military threat, he was an economic threat and a thorn in the side of our little buddies who used to sell our secrets to the Soviets by the name not of Israel.

So there is the back story on that. So we invade, and the new government in Iraq is petrol dollar friendly and US troops are sacraficed like pawns to keep that deal going so the handouts back home to crack whores and fellons keep rolling. There is a connection and a pattern here to the Civil War.

Iraqis seem to have our troops not beaten but frustrated and ready to go home. Funny with the resistance I've seen from the Iraqi militia I think had they wanted, they could have removed Saddam themselves all along. But the Federal government for financial reasons has decided to deny these people their right to self determination. As they did in the South and still do across the country and part of the world. We can cover Guatemala to prove this later if you want to take it to task.

Taliban and Al Queda? Sure, but I think SF and the Marines could have handled that had it not been for incompetent leadership at the top, again see the Union military commands incompetence.

Back to Saddam, I'm no lawyer and yes he was a terrible man, but he owned that courtroom and schooled the judge and the court to the point the judge couldn't keep control of the trial. They let people testify from behind screens, and in our form and their form of law this is not legal for obvious reasons. You have the right to face your accussers. I'm afraid like Nuremberg the actually legal proceedings will only bring shame on the US later when future generations of the world study what appears to have been a formal lynching.
The lynching also was pathetically carried out, and left lots of questions. I personally think the troops who found Saddam would have done the US reputation justice if they'd shot him in that hole and planted a weapon in his hand. Now, God who knows?

Saddam locked in a cell at the Haigue would have been better for us in the long run. Or perhaps making amends would have been good too. WMD's, hahahaha, who doesn't have them? Who is next? Since when do we invade countries for their potential? If this is the case we might need to invade France, Germany, Russia and Mexico. Speaking of Mexico how are our elected patriots handling the illegal issue? Oh they aren't. Now we have MS13 on the streets and I see what 300 thousand Confederates died trying to prevent every direction I look in. It's a sad state. Our politicians are to the man traitors with maybe the exception of Ron Paul. Our military brass is more corrupt than a hard drive full of pirated porn. And our people are fkn dillusional and unrealistic.

We've allied ourselves dangerously with a 5th column and God is going to punish them and us alongside them. And the power we hold he will place in the hand of our enemies to teach us a lesson. You can see it coming just over there if you look.

Jeff Davis if you look at his seal was in line with our founders, who is it on the Confederate Seal upon a horse and where is the rider pointing?
When the South lost the war, we lost our moral compass as a nation, we lost our Constitution and country to merchantilists, bankers and puppet governments whose strings are pulled by those in banking and industry.
And now we go abroad looking for monsters and for every monster like Saddam we kill, we lay waste to 38K civilians. I wonder if that is worth it?
Is that American? And if it is, how long can we go on feeling good about it?

[Desert Sapper]

Wow. You're all over the place.

Yes, there are many instances of double crossing throughout the history of the world, and if you want to go back far enough, you'd find that the political string-pullers have been toying with leaders of smaller nations forever. None of that is really relevant. Saddam was a pain in the ass that grew to be a bigger pain in the ass than he was worth. So, the SECSTATE played him. And then he made the move, and then we spanked his ass. That was the first time.

The Confederate leadership was grasping at a lot of straws to try to counter the balance of power. None of it worked. Was it Davis' diplomatic ineptitude or the illegitimacy of the CSA? Could it be both? Could it be something else? Who cares?

I have a feeling that the preemptive option won't ever be used again. At least not at such an overt level.

We still don't have any Iraqi oil contracts.

[Saint Marc]

Oh I know, I can't believe we didn't get the oil contracts. However we still have that oil priced in dollars, traded in dollars which is good for us. I just think Iraq owes us the costs of this war. And I do disagree with the war on a Constitutional base and how it is conducted. 18 month deployments with guys going over for their 3rd time is a disgrace on the national level. The government and the people should be ashamed to order these guys over there over and over.

Now the CSA was a legitimate nation in every Southerners mind and still is. I see the OU there on your avatar, don't forget your heritage if you are Southern and don't disrespect your kin. For folk and nation, for if it was not for them we would not be here.

I don't believe in Federalism, neither did Jefferson. I think Confederations are better. Some say they are weak, but why is it neccessary that we be an invincible giant? Is there an agenda that requires so much power?
Armed citizens would make any invasion impossible and any occupation suicidal. Look at what the VC and the Iraqi have done to us as occupiers. Imagine what ghetto thugs with MAC-10's and Rednecks with AR's could do?

The military, war and politics has all become an emerging economic sector and I think this is dangerous. Standing armies like the all volenteer force are dangerous and hostile to liberty, and look at Blackwater, as I prick my two thumbs something wicked this way comes. There is something very un-American in our government, military, banking system, industry and religious core today and I can't quite put my finger on it. Again, this new world emerged out of the ashes of the former United States, you see neither side really won anything, we all lost in the end.

That said should our cousins in NY need us we are here, but they need to listen to us sometimes too. We told them about letting illegals in and they would call us racists, well their tollerance cost them 3000 of their kin and 2 towers. Billy Yank needs to get his head out of his ass before we end up like the UK.;)

[Desert Sapper]

Hooah. I was just playing around. I know the CSA was legitimate as any nation ever has been. The problem was with European powers seeing the CSA as legitimate and lending military or economic assistance. Jefferson Davis was a good man and a strong leader, but he couldn't sustain the South any longer than it could be legitimately sustained. Once the document was signed at Appomattox, it was over.

I was born in Texas. I was raised in Oklahoma. I had family members that fought on both sides of the war, but most of my family fought for the Union. The great state of Oklahoma was but a territory until my family (and others like them) came down from Iowa and Kansas in 1889 and claimed territory in Oklahoma.

I see us stronger as one nation, but I would prefer less central government. Politically, I side with George Washington and believe that all political parties are EVIL. How much money does it take for someone to run for parliament in Canada or the UK? How much does it cost in this country? That should provide you with the answer to the question of WHAT IS WRONG in the US. Small groups control everything.

[Saint Marc]

Very well. Are you at Hood or Carson?

[Desert Sapper]

Sheppard. Now go figure that one out. But I'll be in another locale before the month is over. Fun, fun, fun in the hot, hot sun yet again. :D

[Lee Ragan]

Pards, I think the bottom line is that AMERICA, lost the War Between the States.
When I started this thread, I never figured it would get so much blood boiling, but it has been very interesting to read all these opinions.

[Saint Marc]

Lee,
The problem is you have Union Loyalists and Southern Nationalists here who probably aren't even aware that they fall into one or the other groups.
I loved the Union for a long time, only until I joined the military and started following American politics and seeing the slide towards socialism our liberal and so called conservatives in the federal level have plotted for us did I begin to question my love for the Union. I'm an anti-federalist and since Southern Nationalism is the only outlet for anti-federalism at the moment, here I am.
Everything we were warned of about federalism has come true.

Radical liberals since 1865 have been running the country, and don't get me started on activist judges. The Supreme Court and the Federal benches mock the Constitution shamelessly and seem to be allied on an agenda. The agenda is fabian socialism.

There is a little truth in the rednecks conspiracies of one world orders and governments and the banking conspiracies. You just saw one unfold with the recession. It was the largest confiscation and reorganization of wealth in the history of the world.

The Founders fought England to be free of what we live under today, because they knew a free man was the best man, the way God intended him. The old European powers couldn't have that and our civil war had many backers from Europe. England sat it out not only over slavery, but the UK didn't need a global war at the time. See there are more concrete reasons than the thin cover reasons given in HS history.

Russia and Germany aided the Union heavily. The Irish were used as Union cannon fodder, and Lincoln was a Marxist. This is why history is watered down.

America is red and the people don't even realize it or get pissed off when you point out examples. Egalitarianism is what I believe American communism is often called.

[Redleg]

Pards, I think the bottom line is that AMERICA, lost the War Between the States.
When I started this thread, I never figured it would get so much blood boiling, but it has been very interesting to read all these opinions.

Lee, sorry that you missed the past fireworks on other sites by us Yankees versus the likes of the southern ridgerunners and huckeberry's (St Marc, Machine and the rest of the Southern Alliance.):D

We have fought the damn war so many times, I believe we wore it out. Thanks for calling the civil war for what it really was: The War Between The States.
The war against northern aggression.....my ass!;) Preserve the Union!

[Redleg]

Russia and Germany aided the Union heavily. The Irish were used as Union cannon fodder, and Lincoln was a Marxist. This is why history is watered down.



Too bad the Frogs (French) didn't show as promised or the CSA would likely have forced a stalemate.
But the French... you know.

[Desert Sapper]

Yeah, and too bad the Brits had already outlawed slavery or it would have been a no-brainer to side with the CSA. Oh wait, that's right. Slavery had nothing whatever to do with the war. I keep forgetting.;)

[Saint Marc]

England outlawed slavery not because they were the leaders of human rights, but because it gave them an excuse to seize American goods produced by free labor. Free labor was so profitable it was killing the UK economy. Not all is what it appears to be.
The UK was really thinking hard of sending troops, the UK provided all the CSA's arms and cannons and even wool uniforms and some ships. Yeah, we had ships in their harbors after the war even and not a single slave owning commander was arrested.
The Rebel Alliance knows the truth and if the Union version was so solid then I couldn't poke holes in every line.

[Desert Sapper]

England outlawed slavery not because they were the leaders of human rights, but because it gave them an excuse to seize American goods produced by free labor. Free labor was so profitable it was killing the UK economy. Not all is what it appears to be.
The UK was really thinking hard of sending troops, the UK provided all the CSA's arms and cannons and even wool uniforms and some ships. Yeah, we had ships in their harbors after the war even and not a single slave owning commander was arrested.
The Rebel Alliance knows the truth and if the Union version was so solid then I couldn't poke holes in every line.

By side I meant 'publicly ally'. It never officially happened, and I think Gettysburg had everything in the world to do with it. Lee was a genius, but he employed Napoleonic tactics when the technology had made them irrelevant. Damn those Yankee cannons and their infernal range!

Not sure what you are shooting holes in here. The fact is that the CSA did not win the war. Part of the reason for that was the fact that the CSA was not seen as legitimately as the USA was. I'm relatively certain this has not changed.

[Saint Marc]

I am certain that California is weeks away from collapse and NOLA situation. I'm very sure I saw what I saw in NOLA, the LA riots and Watts. I'm pretty sure we'll see more of it. All gratis of Federal meddling.

The Federalists defeated the South militarily and the cost was high and I'm glad my ancestors killed masses of Northern traitors to the founding principles of this country. I'm sad that when the Union defeated the South that they also started the long march through the institutions destroying them with Fabian socialism and egalitarianism to include the first 10 Amendments. We lost our country and now it is ran by dope addicts, felons, child molesters, savages and out right communists. Not a victory to be proud of. The Union victory was a Bolshevik victory, the Civil War was the American Bolshevik Revolution.

That is why you may vote republican, but you are still a socialist. I saw you guys' political centers on those graphs on those threads. I'm right of Adolph Hitler and btw Hitler was a liberal so I need to get a little more to the right.

[Desert Sapper]

Spiffy. You lost a lot of credibility with this recent stuff. Sorry.

[Redleg]

The fact is that the CSA did not win the war. Part of the reason for that was the fact that the CSA was not seen as legitimately as the USA was. I'm relatively certain this has not changed.

I also believe this to be true by the historical fact that civilians from Washington packed picnic baskets and parked their sorry asses on a hilltop to witness the first battle of Manassas. (Bull Run)

[Bamaabiff]

I can agree with some of this. Forrest did not start the Klan. He strengthened it, as I mentioned before. And I suppose it depends on your definition of violence. The 'Fort Pillow Massacre' Forrest was certainly not a dainty butterfly. The Klan was a secret organization. Political disaffiliation is not the same as true disaffiliation.

Forrest was a slave trader. He made no bones about his feeling for the black man.


I won't disagree with you there Des. Forrest was no angel. Hell, he was far from it.

[dukesix]

Considering the State of The Union at the present moment.....maybe 'ol Jeff was on to something.

Dukesix

[Saint Marc]

He absolutely was Duke. 350,000 of our ancestors died trying to prevent this.
Obama was going on last night about Healthcare reform. Since my banishment last I have lived in socialist and even communist countries, well what I consider communist. National Health is healthcare rationing. Sure everyone gets a card, but instead of getting cancer treatment you get assisted suicide options and bandaids. Have a heart attack, you'll die or die shortly after. Socialized medicine is like the BAS bro, and sadly maybe worse, no Tylenol in the UK, Motrin in France? You'd get cocaine faster. Germany has a decent family doctor concept, but still the budget dictates the standard of care you get.

All of Obamas initiatives are about control. Took my kids to the doctor yesterday here in the US for vaccines and they were asked lots of required questions all aimed at snitching on daddy. Does daddy have guns, does he hit mommy or you, does daddy smoke.....on and on. Yep the nanny state is in full effect.
Good to see you Duke and thanks for bringing the BLT (Battalion Landing Team)
I was getting worried HE was going to talk one of these kids into jumping on a grenade to get a medal since he did it in Nam 12 times.

Anyway good to see you, hey you still plinking with that M-1, or was it a Springfield?

[dukesix]

M-1.....bored out to shoot .45!

Dukesix

[Woody]

Tylenol is just the brand name we call that paracetemol in the uk .
Health care is always going to be rationed one way or the other We have the nhs you have hmos both have flaws .I have worked in both health care systems.
Healthcare provision is a huge complicated subject .There are advantages and disadvantages how ever you decide to provide it.