Change

[pingjocky]

Here's some food for thought....

R/
Pingjocky


CHANGE ?



George Bush has been in office for 7 1/2 years. During the first six years, the economy was fine.
A little over one year ago:
1) Consumer confidence stood at a 2 1/2 year high;
2) Regular gasoline sold for $2.19 a gallon;
3) the unemployment rate was 4.5%.
4) the DOW JONES hit a record high--14,000 +
5) Americans were buying new cars, taking cruises,
vacations overseas, and living large!...

But Americans wanted 'CHANGE'!
So, in 2006, they voted in a Democratic Congress & yep--we got 'CHANGE' all right.
In the PAST YEAR:
1) Consumer confidence has plummeted;
2) Gasoline is now approximately $4 a gallon;
3) Unemployment is up to 5% (a 10% increase);
4) Americans have seen their home equity drop by $12
TRILLION DOLLARS & prices still dropping;
5) 1% of American homes are in foreclosure.
6) As I write this, THE DOW is probing another low (11,100);
$2.5 TRILLION DOLLARS HAS EVAPORATED FROM THEIR
STOCKS, BONDS, & MUTUAL FUNDS INVESTMENT
PORTFOLIOS!

AND IF THAT ISN'T ENOUGH...
Speaker Of The House Nancy Pelosi & Senate Majority leader Harry Reed
will not allow a vote on more oil exploration in the USA .



YEP...IN 2006, AMERICA VOTED FOR CHANGE!..
...AND WE SURE GOT IT!!!...

NOW OBAMA, the DEM'S CANDIDATE FOR PRESIDENT, CLAIMS THAT HE'S GONNA REALLY GIVE US CHANGE!!....
JUST HOW MUCH MORE DEMOCRATIC 'CHANGE'
DO YOU THINK YOU CAN STAND???...

[03_SHOOTER]

:blueberet:

Barry Hussein? Just what we need, ANOTHER bum in Washington DC begging for change!!:mad:

[PaulR]

Wow Pingjocky! I have never seen it all laid out like that!! Your post could be a Republican advertisement in it's own! Any idiot can see the damage done by the Dems in your post!

Thanks!

[SlightlyCatholic]

Ping,

You didn't mention the cost of our military operations in the Middle East. Do you think those have detracted from the performance of our economy? The Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have cost billions, that's got to affect domestic economics somehow...

[pingjocky]

Ping,

You didn't mention the cost of our military operations in the Middle East. Do you think those have detracted from the performance of our economy? The Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have cost billions, that's got to affect domestic economics somehow...

Granted, I don't have the exact figures in front of me, but that money is a drop in the bucket compared to how much is spent on wasteful programs such as:
1.) the welfare system in its current state leaks money like an egyptian submarine
2.) "fighting" illegal immigration...while letting them vote, and giving them driver's lisences(sp)? how much money is wasted there?
3.) need I say "government waste"?
4.) illegals will soon be eligible for social security - THAT YOU AND I PAID INTO!!
5.) how about the trillions of dollars being spent to try to bail out mortgage companies?
6.) "free" healthcare for lazy sacks o' poop who refuse to work but want the gumm't to take care of them?
7.) too many more to list............

Please, the wars are the least of our fiscal worries......

R/
Pingjocky

[SlightlyCatholic]

Granted, I don't have the exact figures in front of me, but that money is a drop in the bucket compared to how much is spent on wasteful programs such as:
1.) the welfare system in its current state leaks money like an egyptian submarine
2.) "fighting" illegal immigration...while letting them vote, and giving them driver's lisences(sp)? how much money is wasted there?
3.) need I say "government waste"?
4.) illegals will soon be eligible for social security - THAT YOU AND I PAID INTO!!
5.) how about the trillions of dollars being spent to try to bail out mortgage companies?
6.) "free" healthcare for lazy sacks o' poop who refuse to work but want the gumm't to take care of them?
7.) too many more to list............

Please, the wars are the least of our fiscal worries......

R/
Pingjocky

Well, we could always just print more money, right? That seems to be the new strategy for all our fiscal worries. Maybe I can go to a gardening store and pick up a pack of Money Tree seeds. I hear they take 100 years to germinate, though, so I'll never see the money in my lifetime.

[03_SHOOTER]

Ping,

You didn't mention the cost of our military operations in the Middle East. Do you think those have detracted from the performance of our economy? The Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have cost billions, that's got to affect domestic economics somehow...

According to THIS (http://zfacts.com/p/447.html), and THIS (http://www.nationalpriorities.org/costofwar_home) source, the war in Iraq (as of Sept. 23, '08) is somewhere between $550 and $580 Bn dollars for the past 65 months of operations there, or an average of $8.92 Bn per month. Compared with our annual $3 Tn budget, the $107 Bn a year that we're spending on operations in Iraq don't account for 1/6th of what we're spending on Social Security alone!

To put that in perspective for you, according to a Sept. 10, 2003 article in the Washington Post, in 2003 inflation adjusted dollars (my numbers are average per month over the entire time of the conflicts):

WWI, which lasted 19 months, cost the US $588 Bn, or $30.94 Bn per month.
WWII, which lasted 45 months, cost the US $4.8 Tn, or $106.66 Bn per month.
Korea, which lasted 36 months, cost the US $408 Bn, or $11.33 Bn per month.
Vietnam, which lasted 108 months, cost the US $800 Bn, or $7.4 Bn per month.

If you'd like a REAL eye opener, and you care to do some seriously in depth research, take a look at the costs compared to the GDP of the country at the time. During WWII, America was literally 6 months away from being completely bankrupt.

[CAPSmith]

Ping,

You didn't mention the cost of our military operations in the Middle East. Do you think those have detracted from the performance of our economy? The Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have cost billions, that's got to affect domestic economics somehow...

The affect on domestic economics is stimulus (Minus the money we "give away" for rebuilding) all that money goes right back into the US Economy, which is then taxed and produces more money to spend. The money spent on war related expenses puts money back in the hands of American's who in turn spend it on their Playstations and cable television.

WWII war expenditures and production run ups can be attributed to pulling this country out of the depression.

The social handouts (money for nothing) are what kills us because they pay out more than they take in and rely on "future contributions" to ensure their financial stability.

But it's ok, we'll continue to socialize our debt and reward those who made poor decisions and investments as our dollar continues to get weaker.

As we plunge deeper into debt and reach the $10 Trillion mark it's time for us to re-evaluate our tax system and expenditures. I hate to say this but we're going to have to start paying some taxes here eventually to knock out this debt. I for one don't feel like learning Mandarin.

[03_SHOOTER]

The affect on domestic economics is stimulus (Minus the money we "give away" for rebuilding) all that money goes right back into the US Economy, which is then taxed and produces more money to spend. The money spent on war related expenses puts money back in the hands of American's who in turn spend it on their Playstations and cable television.

WWII war expenditures and production run ups can be attributed to pulling this country out of the depression.

The social handouts (money for nothing) are what kills us because they pay out more than they take in and rely on "future contributions" to ensure their financial stability.

But it's ok, we'll continue to socialize our debt and reward those who made poor decisions and investments as our dollar continues to get weaker.

As we plunge deeper into debt and reach the $10 Trillion mark it's time for us to re-evaluate our tax system and expenditures. I hate to say this but we're going to have to start paying some taxes here eventually to knock out this debt. I for one don't feel like learning Mandarin.

Um, before you finish chowing down on that "Fear Mongering" sandwich and chugging down the DNC "China owns America" Kool-Aide, you might want to go back and review the debt and defecit as a function of the GDP. It might also interest you to find out that, provided the Dims don't do anything else foolish, the debt will be paid off by 2012. I suggest you take a look at the Federal Budget (http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2009/), and specifically the Historical Tables (http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2009/pdf/hist.pdf) at the OMB (http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/) website.

[PDudkowski]

Ping, you can't be serious. While you have cited some statistics regarding a pseudo timeline, you can't blame this Congress. Remember, this Congress has literally done nothing. The Republicans have made that perfectly clear. They have passed no major legislation with regards to our economy or anything having an affect on the budget. With the exception of today's cost of gasoline, go back and look at your financial statements starting, oh say about 9/11/01. Look at the trend. One big dip that lasted several years and the start of a bounce back. It wasn't until the "mortgage crisis" became a household expression of pessimism that things really started to tank. For facts I used my own investment portfolio so the sample was small.

If I go back even farther, Reagan was in the White House. I bought my first house with a 16 1/2% mortgage. Not exactly the rosy picture we were led to believe. Some will retort and insist it was a failed system under Jimmy's watch that led to the problems but given enough time, Reagan's policies fixed it. That being said, then all of the good days recently passed where handed down from Clinton and not created by Bush 43.

The even more astute would tell us that the president doesn't have the power, nor does the Congress to influence the economy in that large of a way. Free markets are the all the rage and all the blame. Our situation was created by greed, corporate and personal. To blame it on a Congress or a President is to give them too much credit. They can influence the world economy in small ways but nothing like what we are seeing today.

Then again, if your intent was to solicit more political noise, your post looks successful.

Once again, I'm still anti-obama. Just probing for the truth.

[CAPSmith]

I suggest you take a look at the Federal Budget (http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2009/), and specifically the Historical Tables (http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2009/pdf/hist.pdf) at the OMB (http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/) website.

It says that the budget deficit is estimated to end by 2012, not that the debt will be paid off. We will be able to pay the minimum amount to get by and will have extra money to pay off some of that debt (a whopping 48 billion the first year and 26 billion the next), assuming they don't decide to provide "tax rebates" again like last time...

That still leaves us nearly 10 trillion in debt that we'll need to pay off. We owe a little over 1/2 of our public debt to ourselves. Foreign governments own the remaining 48% of our public debt, of the largest backers thusfar is China who holds aproximately 22% of US Treasury securities. Factor in Japan and two countries hold nearly 50% of our debt.

The expenditures as a product of our GDP has remained relatively flat, which is good and which is why the deficit is expected to end in a few years. But again, it leaves us 2 years of our entire GDP in debt to foreign governements.

Cash is king and we don't have it. You want prices for things to go down? Pay off your debts and inflation will decrease. This is already visible in what the market is doing lately. Signs that the enconomy has some life to it, the greenback strengthens and prices drop. 700 billion dollar bail-out for greedy people who want to socialize the debt made by their bad decision making, oil jumps $40 a barrel because of the weakened dollar.

[03_SHOOTER]

It says that the budget deficit is estimated to end by 2012, not that the debt will be paid off.

Correct you are, my apologies for misstating.

We will be able to pay the minimum amount to get by and will have extra money to pay off some of that debt (a whopping 48 billion the first year and 26 billion the next), assuming they don't decide to provide "tax rebates" again like last time...

That still leaves us nearly 10 trillion in debt that we'll need to pay off. We owe a little over 1/2 of our public debt to ourselves. Foreign governments own the remaining 48% of our public debt, of the largest backers thusfar is China who holds aproximately 22% of US Treasury securities. Factor in Japan and two countries hold nearly 50% of our debt.

The expenditures as a product of our GDP has remained relatively flat, which is good and which is why the deficit is expected to end in a few years. But again, it leaves us 2 years of our entire GDP in debt to foreign governements.

Cash is king and we don't have it. You want prices for things to go down? Pay off your debts and inflation will decrease. This is already visible in what the market is doing lately. Signs that the enconomy has some life to it, the greenback strengthens and prices drop. 700 billion dollar bail-out for greedy people who want to socialize the debt made by their bad decision making, oil jumps $40 a barrel because of the weakened dollar.

I'm not really sure where you're getting your numbers, but they're more than just a little bit off. Of the current approx. $10 Tn debt, only $2.6 Tn, or 26% is held by foreigners. Japan holds $592 Bn., and China holds $500 Bn. for a total of 42.05% of our total foreign debt, which means that your source asserting that China and Japan hold half of our debt is fallacious since it's readily apparant that foreigners actually hold less just over 1/4 of our debt, and China and Japan hold less than 11%.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/Foreign_Holders_of_United_States_Treasury_Securiti es-percent_share.gif

Also, the overarching concern with debt and deficit are more than a bit disingenuous once one considers that the vast majority of people who are screaming the loudest about it, are themselves up above their eyeballs in debt. Do you own your home, or are you still paying a mortgage? Do you have clear title on every vehicle you own, or are you making payments? Do you hold any credit card debt, or do you pay cash for everything? The fact is that the vast majority of Americans are in debt at a far greater percentage then the government is.

Pot, Kettle, Over!!

[CAPSmith]

Do you own your home, or are you still paying a mortgage?
Neither.
Do you have clear title on every vehicle you own Yes.

Do you hold any credit card debt Not a single dime.

Pot, Kettle, Over!!

The chart you have posted above, I misread. Darn qualifying titles...

But anyway, the pot calling the kettle black doesn't matter - just because people themselves are in bad financial situations doesn't mean that poor accounting and budgeting practices are justfiable by our own government.

Nobody likes paying taxes, nobody likes seeing their money wasted. Unfortunately though people are not willing enough to put the check mark in the correct box and get rid of those who fail to protect the interests of these United States of America.

Poor accounting practices and bad investments have caused the problem we have in the private sector and all the damn social entitlements we have, have put us in a bad financial situation. These problems have put us on the national stage trying to convince the entire world that we'll get our crap together and pay our bills. The entire world economy is on the edge right now and poised for a huge recession if we can't fix this.

Unfortunately, neither of our candidates are really willing to talk about how they want to address the financial health of this country. They talk about cutting pork barrel spending and cutting taxes because that is what will win them votes. Neither of which will address the issues we face in our budget deficit or unfunded social entitlements, especially if this $700 billion bailout goes through.

[DaveIn3D]

The feds are spending my money to bail out corrupt businessmen. Hillary is saying we need more depression era governance. Paulson might get 700bn to spend how he pleases with no oversite or regulations to control him. What the hell is my country doing?

If you suck at business, you fail. Capitalism demands that some companies fail so others may rise up in its place. The next companies dont make the same mistakes and are generally better. Letting AIG fail might suck int eh short-term but it would create a huge hole that has to be filled by somebody.

I dont think Hillary realizes we are still in a depression era government. Social security is something that should have died when we dug ourselves out of the depression. It is a eyesore now that only fuels lower income families to not try and be better. Government funded living from cradle to grave.

I dont think anyone is worth 700bn with no oversite. I wouldnt give George Washington that much of my tax money to play with. You give that money to Paulson and you just made him the worlds richest man. If you really want to spend that money, use it to buy back nearly half of our foreign debt. Or you can just give it to me along with some oceanfront property in Arizona and leave me the hell alone.

-3D

[03_SHOOTER]

OK guys, I believe there are a few things that you have really failed to comprehend about our "debt", what it means, and why "paying it off" really isn't a good idea in the first place. If you own any T-Bills, then YOU own part of the US debt. If you own any US Savings Bonds, then YOU own part of the US debt. If you own ANY of the United States securities instruments, the YOU own part of the US debt, and many people do own a vast chunk of these instruments as part of their retirement planning because they know that the US government is good for the money, and they stand to make a fairly decent rate of growth for their investment.

Without getting into a long drawn out, and highly technical class on Econ 101, the fact is that immediately following the Revolutionary War, while under the articles of confederation, the brand new United States held an inflation adjusted equivalent of over $1 Billion in debt, and this before the Constitution had even been penned!!!

The easiest, and surest way to "pay down" the debt is to grow the economy at a rate of growth that exceeds inflation. The interest on all of the securities that make up our debt is at a fixed rate, so the surest way for the government to "pay down the debt" is to take in more money, at a faster rate, than the interest on those securities, but therein lies the biggest challenge; how do we do that? Now, I want to be clear that I am NOT an economist, nor do I play one on television, but the only way I'm aware of to actually accomplish that goal is to get all of those companies that have gone overseas because it's more financially advantageous for them, to return to the US, and how do we do that? By revoking the 16th Amendment, and adopting the FairTax.

How will getting the FairTax do that? The first thing to understand is what grows our economy, and what stifles it. The single greatest disincentive to our economic system is taxes, specifically income taxes, corporate taxes, this tax, that tax, and the other tax, because they punish hard work, and reward sloth. The FairTax incentivizes hard work, because it eliminates income taxes, corporate taxes, this tax, that tax, and the other tax, and replaces ALL of them with a single, simple, point of purchase Federal consumption tax. That means when your boss says that you're being paid $20.00 an hours, at the end of a 40 hour week, you get a check for $800.00 (less your State tax, unless your State adopts the FairTax system), and then YOU decide how much you want to pay in taxes by determining for yourself what you will spend YOUR money on!

[dukesix]

I don't know what it's going to take.....maybe when our kids are eating dirt and moldy bread....and gas goes to $5.00-6.00 a gallon...then maybe we will finally grab the torches and pitchforks.....and make our way to D.C. Not literally, (yet the sight of such an action would scare the filibuster out of our elected officials) but in other ways. Who knows, yesterday might have been a wake up call for some. Nonetheless, we do indeed live in interesting times.

Dukesix