Just SHOOT THEM, with your RIFLE, that's what it's for!!

[03_SHOOTER]

All I can say is...I TOLD YOU SO, I TOLD YOU SO! :p

Government Report: Non-Lethal Weapon Program a Waste of Money (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,518142,00.html)

The Pentagon's pain ray? Pointless. The laser dazzler? Lousy. The anti-vehicle slippery foam? Washed out.

That's the upshot of a highly critical report released last week by the U.S. Government Accountability Office and expounded upon by Wired News.

The report found that the Department of Defense's Joint Non-Lethal Weapons Program (JNLWP) has spent $386 million since it was formed in 1996, and created exactly zero useful non-lethal weapons.

For example, the Active Denial System (ADS) or "pain ray," which focuses microwaves on a target's skin to create intense pain without any lasting effect, does work, as several journalists found out when it zapped them during demonstrations a couple of years ago.

But it takes 16 hours for it to warm up, according to the GAO report. It weighs 9 tons. It's so complicated it can't be fixed in the field. After spending $55 million, the DoD decided not to deploy it overseas.

But at least the ADS is still being worked on. Two other projects were terminated after a total of $12 million had been spent.

The Mobility Denial System, military-speak for slippery foam that rendered roads impassable, just used too much water while operating. It took 8 years to discover that.

The FN303 Less-Lethal Launching System, a souped-up paintball gun, was heavy and fell apart easily. Nevertheless, it was deployed for a while even though the DoD never figured out how to properly supply the compressed-air canisters the guns needed.

As for laser dazzlers, meant to temporarily blind unruly mobs, the GAO pointed out that those revealed a more systemic problem — some of these "non-lethal" weapons turned out to be pretty damaging overall.

Several GIs had their vision impaired, at least one permanently, when they were accidentally hit by a truck-mounted dazzler.

[JohnP]

All I can say is...I TOLD YOU SO, I TOLD YOU SO! :p

I don’t know which theme music I should listen to when I type this query? Should it be the theme music to James Bond or the Pink Panther?

R & D in the military is necessary to promote the ability for our Soldiers, Sailors, Marines and Airmen to effectively reduce the capabilities of our opposing forces. BS devices like the “Dazzler” and “Souped-Up Paintball Gun,” are not a means to keep the enemy from gaining and maintain momentum.

I can remember a quote from the 2008 movie Ironman, “Tony Stark: *They* say that the best weapon is the one you never have to fire. I respectfully disagree. I prefer the weapon you only have to fire once…. Find an excuse to let one of these off the chain, and I personally guarantee, the bad guys won't even wanna come out of their caves.” These are the types of weapons that R & D should be developing, not some warm and fuzzy toy that will tickle the enemy to sleep. When I was stationed in Germany during the Reagan era, the biggest, most controversial weapon that was being designed was the “Neutron Bomb.” A weapon that was so devious that it only killed flesh, leaving the buildings and weapons intact. You unleashed this monster, and it was Dos Vodanya, Rodina. All the infantry had to do was go in with a vacuum sweeper and clean up the mess.

Let’s get out of the “Warm and Fuzzy” military and back to the basics or as I like to call it, the bayonet obstacle course. What is the fastest and best method for me to get from point A to point B, all the while killing as many of the enemy as possible?

:M16:

[HairyEyeball]

Government Report: Non-Lethal Weapon Program a Waste of Money

And the government reaches yet another 'well, duh!' moment...

[03_SHOOTER]

What is the fastest and best method for me to get from point A to point B, all the while killing as many of the enemy as possible?

:M16:

Unless I'm mistaken, didn't we used to sleep about 100' down the cableway, and one level up from the answer to that question??

Point "A"; An enemy of America needs to be killed.

BLINDING FLASH, many enemy dead, survivors sick or no longer willing to threaten America.

Point "B"; Peace.

Seems simple enough to me.

[HairyEyeball]

Unless I'm mistaken, didn't we used to sleep about 100' down the cableway, and one level up from the answer to that question??

Point "A"; An enemy of America needs to be killed.

BLINDING FLASH, many enemy dead, survivors sick or no longer willing to threaten America.

Point "B"; Peace.

Seems simple enough to me.

Alternatively:

1. You want to destroy me and my way of life.
2. You die, your family dies, your 'supportive' friends and neighbors die, and your country becomes an uninhabitable wasteland.

It seemed to work for Rome - until it rotted from the inside. After all, Rome had a 'Senate'. We have both a 'Senate' and a 'House of Representatives'. Do the dots connect?

[03_SHOOTER]

Do the dots connect?

To an extent, except that Rome had a nasty habit of running around the world conquering and attempting to occupy their enemies. We, conversely, at least since the mid 1800's, haven't expressed much interest in occupying the lands of our enemies, preferring instead to let them keep it with the proviso that they sell us what we want at a reasonable price.

As far as our current problems with our Senate, as well as the House, unless and until such time as they restrict their activities to only those things specifically enumerated in the text of the Constitution, or we replace them with representatives who will, they will continue to be a problem for which, under the limitations in the Constitution, our options for dealing with them are severely limited.

[Woody]

Non lethals have their place espically if the millitary get involved in operations other than war .None of those seem to offer any improvement over the plastic bullet , cs gas and the good old baton.

[HairyEyeball]

None of those seem to offer any improvement over...the good old baton.

Um, 'distance'?

[03_SHOOTER]

Non lethals have their place espically if the millitary get involved in operations other than war .None of those seem to offer any improvement over the plastic bullet , cs gas and the good old baton.

"Non-lethals" are a JOKE. If CN (CS is also a joke) doesn't get their attention, and you need some other "less than lethal" option, SHOOT THEM IN THE LEG!

It's rarely lethal, and it has the added bonus of letting you know in the future who the a$$ho**s are from at least 20 meters away... by their GIMP!

[space3math]

I had the privilege of visiting Kirtland AFB, NM, which houses the laser directorate of the AF Research Lab, a few years ago, and during the visit we actually had a briefing specifically on the "pain laser". One use to consider is what they focused on in that presentation: the enemy is no longer so clearly identified, and at times may even purposely intermix themselves with innocent women and children, precisely because they know that unlike them, Americans are (rightly) going to do whatever they can to minimize damage inflicted upon the truly innocent. As the officer who was briefing us explained, the hope was that this system would allow the capability to temporarily and very effectively deter a violent mob, without doing any actual physical damage to the innocents involved.
By the way, we got the chance to experience the laser on a pin-prick scale on our finger, and even in such a small area, it was...quite effective at achieving the desired result. In my opinion, it's a shame they couldn't develop this technology in a way that was physically and financially viable.

[Woody]

Um, 'distance'?

Thats what baton rounds are for :). When it kicked off in basrah .The same week the idf killed that cleric in a wheelchair with a helicopter gunship .Saw a guy in the hostile crowd wave a sword at us.Every Baton gunner saw it as an opptunity to reinact the scene from raiders of the lost ark.:devil:.Unfortuntly
for the crowd they were not as good a shot as Indiana Jones and several others got hit .Crowd learned to keep its distance pretty quickly.

[HairyEyeball]

Baton rounds? - oh, rubber bullets. Gotcha. Shame you Brits never mastered proper English military terminology...nor, apparently, fire discipline.

[CAPSmith]

Baton rounds? - oh, rubber bullets. Gotcha. Shame you Brits never mastered proper English military terminology...nor, apparently, fire discipline.

I'm pretty sure "Baton Rounds" are actually the bean-bag type, filled with lead balls. Still doesn't put much distance between you, but can be lethal if fired within 2 meters...

[03_SHOOTER]

Thats what baton rounds are for :). When it kicked off in basrah .The same week the idf killed that cleric in a wheelchair with a helicopter gunship .Saw a guy in the hostile crowd wave a sword at us.Every Baton gunner saw it as an opptunity to reinact the scene from raiders of the lost ark.:devil:.Unfortuntly
for the crowd they were not as good a shot as Indiana Jones and several others got hit .Crowd learned to keep its distance pretty quickly.

Uh, silly question from one of the resident "ugly Americans" but why didn't someone just walk up to within, oh, I don't know, say 3 METERS and put a 9mm round right through his PUMPKIN??? Not much chance of hitting any "innocent bystanders", and everyone learns a valuable object lesson about bringing a knife (albeit a rather large one) to a GUN FIGHT.

[Ivan_The_Mute]

I'm pretty sure "Baton Rounds" are actually the bean-bag type, filled with lead balls. Still doesn't put much distance between you, but can be lethal if fired within 2 meters...

Screw bean-bag rounds. If I'm using a 'less lethal,' I want an actual 40mm wooden baton round. Saw some footage of the SMPA's "Special Unit 01" (which are volunteer riot control officers) using them on protesters. One shot, aimed about five or six feet in front of the crowds, hit two guys who both went down with broken legs. Less lethal is merely a matter of aiming high or low.

[HairyEyeball]

Second on the 'screw bean-bag rounds'. If someone needs to be shot, he needs to be shot. Nothing reinforces the concept 'attack us and you die' like real blood spurting from real dead bodies. This 'kinder, gentler' military encourages our enemies, because they see no permanent deterrent in attacking us.

Killing a human being - at least to us - is something you never quite get over, but it beats hell out of being the one killed, especially by someone you only bruised.

[OBOOT]

Non lethal weapons are wholly ineffective because No one could ever yell KAKKA DOW!!! when pushing a button on a laser.