Starting Rank

[Airbourne Infantry]

In my Squadron we all used to start off our Cadet careers as Cadet Airman Basics. This year though, all of the new Cadets are starting off as Cadet Airmen. Is this even allowed? What do you think?

[TruBlu]

My unit (squadron) does the same thing, and I don't agree with it. c/AB is the rank that you should start with, and you should earn c/Amn like every other rank within the AFJROTC in my opinion. Its allowed, at least I've never seen anything that is against it, but I'll have to look into it (my first Google search relieved nothing, time for bigger guns). Nothing will probably turn up against this, its just a choice that your (like mine) unit commander made (or is it SASI/ASI?). I know my unit does it to make people "feel good" about having something on their uniform :dontgetit:.

[flyBoy2010]

In my unit we have a week long camp for the incoming Freshman to go to the week before school starts. They learn basic drill, the chain of command, and are issued uniforms. If they attend this camp then they are promoted to C/Amn.
Everyone else starts as c/AB.

[armysc_25b]

That's exactly how my old AJROTC unit operated. That week long Orientation Camp taught incoming LET-1 cadets everything we required them to know in order to advance from c/PVT to c/PV2. At the end of the week, we promoted them. In turn, they were able to turn around and help teach their peers. It's a win-win situation for all involved.

[TruBlu]

In my unit we have a week long camp for the incoming Freshman to go to the week before school starts. They learn basic drill, the chain of command, and are issued uniforms. If they attend this camp then they are promoted to C/Amn.
Everyone else starts as c/AB.

That sounds really cool! If my unit was big enough and had enough freshman interest, I'd bring it up to my SASI, but I don't think anything would ever come of it for us. But that's really cool, is this something that a lot of units do?

[flyBoy2010]

I'm not sure, but it seems that we aren't the only unit to do so.
Also, size isn't an issue. We had only 50 cadets in the program my freshman year. This year we are up to 96, if we can get another 4 by Oct. 1 we are off probation!

[TruBlu]

I'm not sure, but it seems that we aren't the only unit to do so.
Also, size isn't an issue. We had only 50 cadets in the program my freshman year. This year we are up to 96, if we can get another 4 by Oct. 1 we are off probation!

Ah, well what I meant is that we don't have the dedicated numbers. We may also be going on probation soon, our numbers are dwindling very very fast. I don't even know if we will hit 100 by the end of next semester... But whatever, we'll just keep making people sign up lol (just kidding...kinda...)!

[flyBoy2010]

We've slowly been building up our numbers over the past few years. At one point we were down to about 20 cadets.

[C/ZOOMIE]

I started out in MCJROTC as an E-1. I think thats how it should be in ANY JROTC unit......

[TruBlu]

We've slowly been building up our numbers over the past few years. At one point we were down to about 20 cadets.

Dang! I hope it never gets like that at my unit. But it sounds like you guys are rebounding so good luck on keeping up the good work!

[flyBoy2010]

Thanks for the support. I hope we can find 4 more people to add to the corps.
Talk to your SASI and see if next summer you can get together a Freshman camp.

[TruBlu]

Thanks for the support. I hope we can find 4 more people to add to the corps.
Talk to your SASI and see if next summer you can get together a Freshman camp.

Now added to a long list of to dos.

[flyBoy2010]

Now added to a long list of to dos.

Good Luck getting them all done.

[C.A.P. Flight Officer]

My unit will most likely go on probation soon. The school board is making the SASI go to another school during the school day which is a violation of contract. :(

[flyBoy2010]

The school board is making the SASI go to another school during the school day which is a violation of contract. :(

What's the deal with that?

[TruBlu]

My unit will most likely go on probation soon. The school board is making the SASI go to another school during the school day which is a violation of contract. :(

What? Why in the world would they do that? How many ASIs do you have? Not that it really matters because your SASI should always be there. That's like having a teacher and a student teacher in a class together and the teacher leaving during class to let the student teacher teach everything (not downplaying ASIs in any way, just getting a point through).

[C.A.P. Flight Officer]

My unit only has one SASI and one ASI. The SASI goes overthre to be with a small class tell them about our unit everyday. That is was the recruitment team is for. I am the Recruitment Team Leader so I already have everything ready to go over to the middle school like brochers, powerpoints ...............
The recruitment team only goes overthere a few times a year, but a few times is enough. The SASI shouldnt have to go over to the middle school everyday, the students will get tired of hearing about AFJROTC..........
:blueberet: :mp:

[TruBlu]

My unit only has one SASI and one ASI. The SASI goes overthre to be with a small class tell them about our unit everyday. That is was the recruitment team is for. I am the Recruitment Team Leader so I already have everything ready to go over to the middle school like brochers, powerpoints ...............
The recruitment team only goes overthere a few times a year, but a few times is enough. The SASI shouldnt have to go over to the middle school everyday, the students will get tired of hearing about AFJROTC..........
:blueberet: :mp:

Yeah to be honest with you, I see no appeal to middle school students about an instructor of a high school class coming to talk EVERY day about the program. To explain AFJROTC enough for them to want to join should only take one or two visits with some handouts as reminders. Every day visits could be tiring for the students because they are going to hear the same thing. I just don't understand the logic in it, or lack there of.

[C.A.P. Flight Officer]

We've slowly been building up our numbers over the past few years. At one point we were down to about 20 cadets.


Do you mean you had 20 cadets in your unit at one point? How did your unit recover? :blueberet: :mp:

[flyBoy2010]

My freshman class was pretty large and after that we have had 30 or so freshmen every year with about 20 staying for the next yeary

[C.A.P. Flight Officer]

Hey flyBoy2010 what does your freshmen camp consist of? My unit's freshmen orientation camp consists of mainly drill, exercise, and learning of basic AFJROTC stuff in the classroom.:mp:

[StormCrow]

Technically it is allowed since first year cadets in cadet programs are supposed to finish there first year with at least one stripe (required under AFJROTC Regulations, I am not sure about CAP). However, what I used to do when I was an AS-3 and a Squadron commander of the AS-1 Squadron was leave them at C/AB until they passed a regiment of milestones, like a basic training type thing. There Basic Training graduation was called the "Right of Passage ceremony." At this ceremony they went from being a "recruit" or as the officers and I affectionately called them "blanks" to earning the title Cadet and receiving their first stripe. When they reached C/Senior Airman they would be required from that point on to attend a promotion board which consisted of myself and other officers that would inspect their uniform, give them drill commands to perform, and put them through a rigorous battery of questions. they needed to achieve an 85% in MY squadron to pass (the unit score requirement was 70%) to receive there promotion into the Cadet NCO ranks. From that point on they were required to attend a promotion board which is a practice that I left at my unit and they still use today.

But to answer your question...Yes they are allowed to do that. I don't support it because like you all when I was a cadet I started out as an C/Airman Basic, and earned EVERY stripe through blood, sweat, and tears.

Storm

[flyBoy2010]

Hey flyBoy2010 what does your freshmen camp consist of? My unit's freshmen orientation camp consists of mainly drill, exercise, and learning of basic AFJROTC stuff in the classroom.:mp:

Our camp consists of that same stuff, as well as games, a trip to the ROPES course and at the end of the week we have a pizza party.

StormCrow:
We also have tests and time minimums for cadets to achieve certain ranks. Officers must have their teachers fill out an evaluation sheet that rates graded, attendance, cooperativeness, etc.
However we do not have a promotions board that they must present themselves to in order to receive a promotion.


This is our requirements for enlisted promotions from our UMD.

[TruBlu]

Our camp consists of that same stuff, as well as games, a trip to the ROPES course and at the end of the week we have a pizza party.

StormCrow:
We also have tests and time minimums for cadets to achieve certain ranks. Officers must have their teachers fill out an evaluation sheet that rates graded, attendance, cooperativeness, etc.
However we do not have a promotions board that they must present themselves to in order to receive a promotion.


This is our requirements for enlisted promotions from our UMD.

Wow that looks really good, do you mind if I were to save a copy and develop something of the same nature for my own unit while using yours as an example or base? Also is there one for officers?

[flyBoy2010]

Wow that looks really good, do you mind if I were to save a copy and develop something of the same nature for my own unit while using yours as an example or base? Also is there one for officers?

Not at all! That's why I put it up.
If you would like our officer evaluation or anything else from our UMD just let me know and I can PM the link to you.

[C.A.P. Flight Officer]

flyBoy2010, if you can send me a copy of enlisted and officer I and my unit would greatly appreciate it. :):mp:

[TruBlu]

Not at all! That's why I put it up.
If you would like our officer evaluation or anything else from our UMD just let me know and I can PM the link to you.

And this is what I love about community. Units working together to strengthen other units, even if they have never heard or them or even know their designation. That's fantastic. Thanks man.

[C.A.P. Flight Officer]

Thank you flyBoy2010. Hopefully this will help my unit get better. I agree TruBlu. :mp:

[flyBoy2010]

Not a problem. I also agree with TruBlue.

[StormCrow]

But you have to admit...part of being a leader is presenting your case (in whatever form) to your superiors to tell them that you deserve that promotion is a key element in the development of young leaders. When I went before my instructors for the Cadet of the Month award, they asked me "why should we grace you with this cord, and ribbon?" My answer was simple "Because if you want that award to truly be worn by the best, I am your only choice."

Now, granted that statement at the time may have been a bit cocky and seeing as I did receive the award the instructors probably had some predetermined decision to give it to me since, again, after saying that they gave it to me, it still shows that a true leader is what many of you have said that I am in recent PM's...not afraid to stand up for what you believe in and say what you need to say.

Promotion boards are two things, training for leadership development, as well as a test for the knowledge they cadet should know to advance in the first place.

Storm

[C.A.P. Flight Officer]

My unit does not have a promotion board. How/what do I need to do to get one started for my unit? :mp:

[TruBlu]

My unit does not have a promotion board. How/what do I need to do to get one started for my unit? :mp:

Setting up a promotion board is basically the same as setting any other type of committee. Have your commander assign 3 to 5 cadets of different rank and AS year (but try to have a majority of AS4s and AS3s). Then once they know what they need to be looking for in cadets, initiate it.

[C.A.P. Flight Officer]

OK, Thank you TruBlu. Do you have a sample of a checklist, or some questions that the board can ask?

[TruBlu]

OK, Thank you TruBlu. Do you have a sample of a checklist, or some questions that the board can ask?

I don't have anything. The only thing that I can provide is the idea really, as I am working on these things myself also. My unit doesn't have this kind of stuff, and I'm developing it, but it takes major time to do alone or with only a small dedicated crew. But I'll hook you up as soon as we formulate something.

[StormCrow]

Really that should be provided on a discretionary by the cadets squardon commander (given that your unit is the size of a Wing if not than please let me know what type of unit you are...squadron, Group, etc). The Flight commander should be the one to prep the cadet and the Squadron Commander should supply the Group commander with a set of questions that the cadet should know based upon what the training focus for the quarter has been. Remember even if the cadet passes the board no promotion is a promotion without the Wing Commander's Signature. Some things you can look at are as follows:

Uniform inspection(if you really want to kick it up get a list of the awards they should have so that you can grill them with that)
Customs and courtesies
Military History
Leadership education
Aerospace science
Drill and Ceremonies
Military Aircraft
Name the ribbons in order from top right to the bottom left
Describe the Air Force uniform and its History
Cadet creed
Airman creed

All answers should be given verbally as they are asked by the board verbally. The Cadet should follow standard report in procedures when reporting in and out, should remain standing until given 'seats,' and when at seats should be at 'square off' (heals together, palms on the laps, and looking straight as if at 'attention'). The Cadet should receive his/her score after all of the other cadets have gone and been scored. The score should be written on a peace of paper, or to be more professional presented in the form of an order in private. The score is a private matter. Along with the score the word 'pass' or 'fail' should follow. Hold your promotion boards once every two months at least.

Storm

[C.A.P. Flight Officer]

Really that should be provided on a discretionary by the cadets squardon commander (given that your unit is the size of a Wing if not than please let me know what type of unit you are...squadron, Group, etc). The Flight commander should be the one to prep the cadet and the Squadron Commander should supply the Group commander with a set of questions that the cadet should know based upon what the training focus for the quarter has been. Remember even if the cadet passes the board no promotion is a promotion without the Wing Commander's Signature. Some things you can look at are as follows:

Uniform inspection(if you really want to kick it up get a list of the awards they should have so that you can grill them with that)
Customs and courtesies
Military History
Leadership education
Aerospace science
Drill and Ceremonies
Military Aircraft
Name the ribbons in order from top right to the bottom left
Describe the Air Force uniform and its History
Cadet creed
Airman creed

All answers should be given verbally as they are asked by the board verbally. The Cadet should follow standard report in procedures when reporting in and out, should remain standing until given 'seats,' and when at seats should be at 'square off' (heals together, palms on the laps, and looking straight as if at 'attention'). The Cadet should receive his/her score after all of the other cadets have gone and been scored. The score should be written on a peace of paper, or to be more professional presented in the form of an order in private. The score is a private matter. Along with the score the word 'pass' or 'fail' should follow. Hold your promotion boards once every two months at least.

Storm

My unit is a Group with 120 cadets. :mp:

[AFCougar]

In my unit we have a week long camp for the incoming Freshman to go to the week before school starts. They learn basic drill, the chain of command, and are issued uniforms. If they attend this camp then they are promoted to C/Amn.
Everyone else starts as c/AB.

Our unit does the same thing, although we have it over 3 days. I went to it my Freshman Year... It was fun, packed schedule, but fun.

[TruBlu]

My unit is a Group with 120 cadets. :mp:

That's one small group. You should think about the idea of having a large squadron if the group isn't very effective. I could help you out if you would like the help, just PM me and we can discuss your unit a little more in detail, in private.

[StormCrow]

120...Would that make you a Group or a Squadron, because that really isn't even close to being a wing.

This way I can tell you who is responsible for passing along the recommended questions because it should be the closest executive commander to the cadet. Executive type commands start at the squadron level normally, but in a unit that is a squadron that responsibility can fall to the Flight Commander or even the Element Leader.

If your unit is a Group or a Wing the suggested material should come from the squadron commander in concurrence with the Flight Commander. If your Unit is any smaller than that, that the material should come from the Flight Commander in concurrence with the Element leader, and Flight Sergeant.

Storm

[TruBlu]

120...Would that make you a Group or a Squadron, because that really isn't even close to being a wing.

This way I can tell you who is responsible for passing along the recommended questions because it should be the closest executive commander to the cadet. Executive type commands start at the squadron level normally, but in a unit that is a squadron that responsibility can fall to the Flight Commander or even the Element Leader.

If your unit is a Group or a Wing the suggested material should come from the squadron commander in concurrence with the Flight Commander. If your Unit is any smaller than that, that the material should come from the Flight Commander in concurrence with the Element leader, and Flight Sergeant.

Storm

His unit is a group, but 120 cadets should really be a squadron. Groups with 120 cadets tend to be top heavy, and efforts do not balance out the end product most of the time.

[StormCrow]

Well, truly it would work either way...in this case A Group can have one squadron will the actual ops flights, and another squadron with the clubs and Logistics. If you would like details on how that works, PM me.

In your case, C/Colonel...it would be the squadron commander that would present the suggested questions.

Storm

[TruBlu]

Well, truly it would work either way...in this case A Group can have one squadron will the actual ops flights, and another squadron with the clubs and Logistics. If you would like details on how that works, PM me.

In your case, C/Colonel...it would be the squadron commander that would present the suggested questions.

Storm

Oh, don't worry about me and organizational structure. I understand how that works, but I think that if you were to have a group with 120, there needs to be a solid structure, and not a lot of random staff jobs that mean nothing. But I think that a group structure with 120 should definitely be one operational support squadron, and one operational support squadron, with a small group staff.

[StormCrow]

What you have to realize, TruBlu,

Is that the unit doesn't always make that decision. Sometimes the SASI receives orders from HQ stating that since their numbers have grown to the minimum count for a certain unit type, that they should operate as that unit type. In 1995 the school district that my old unit fell under moved the 9th grade from being a middle school grade to a high school grade. This made my old unit of a Group (185 cadets) grow to a Wing, with its first operational Count being 220 cadets. The AFJROTC standard for an operational unit as stated in the Drill and Ceremonies text book that you are supposed to receive your AS-1 year is that in any unit their should be a squadron, flight, or Group that is the Operations unit that houses all of the cadets in the unit so as to perform the main functions of academics. Then you should have a separate unit for your clubs, and ops support units such as Information Management, and personnel. In some cases you can put logistics within the Support Squadron, but the structure in the D&C textbook suggest that the Logistics unit be a separate unit. Notice, TruBlu that each of these mentioned units has a FUNCTION, and does MEAN SOMETHING. Each unit no matter who you are needs, personnel, logistics, Info Mgt., and clubs, and notice that each of these is required to take personnel from each ops flight to support their flight in which ever they are assigned to. You have representatives or as I like to call it, sections specialists, maybe to for each from each flight, or one for each from each element that performs the function of either logistics, Info Management, Personnel, etc. but those individuals would make these mentioned sub-units actual units with an effective head-count.

Your chart is well structured, however, you have way to much going on in that mission support squadron. I would suggest creating a service support squadron that houses everything that is not a club. That way not only does this open up room for more jobs, but each squadron commander is supervising something that is with one common objective whether it be supporting the unit, or extra-curricular.

Storm

[TruBlu]

What you have to realize, TruBlu,

Is that the unit doesn't always make that decision. Sometimes the SASI receives orders from HQ stating that since their numbers have grown to the minimum count for a certain unit type, that they should operate as that unit type. In 1995 the school district that my old unit fell under moved the 9th grade from being a middle school grade to a high school grade. This made my old unit of a Group (185 cadets) grow to a Wing, with its first operational Count being 220 cadets. The AFJROTC standard for an operational unit as stated in the Drill and Ceremonies text book that you are supposed to receive your AS-1 year is that in any unit their should be a squadron, flight, or Group that is the Operations unit that houses all of the cadets in the unit so as to perform the main functions of academics. Then you should have a separate unit for your clubs, and ops support units such as Information Management, and personnel. In some cases you can put logistics within the Support Squadron, but the structure in the D&C textbook suggest that the Logistics unit be a separate unit. Notice, TruBlu that each of these mentioned units has a FUNCTION, and does MEAN SOMETHING. Each unit no matter who you are needs, personnel, logistics, Info Mgt., and clubs, and notice that each of these is required to take personnel from each ops flight to support their flight in which ever they are assigned to. You have representatives or as I like to call it, sections specialists, maybe to for each from each flight, or one for each from each element that performs the function of either logistics, Info Management, Personnel, etc. but those individuals would make these mentioned sub-units actual units with an effective head-count.

Your chart is well structured, however, you have way to much going on in that mission support squadron. I would suggest creating a service support squadron that houses everything that is not a club. That way not only does this open up room for more jobs, but each squadron commander is supervising something that is with one common objective whether it be supporting the unit, or extra-curricular.

Storm

Are you talking about the chart that I uploaded in my first post? Or are you talking about that word document from a few posts ago? If its the latter of the two, that's not my unit, that was another cadet's, I was just commenting on the XO and Command Chief Master Sergeant. But I did think, like you, that there was a whole lot of stuff going on in that squadron. Oh man, I think I'm talking about another thread.

Lol, I think this discussion has moved to many a thread, now its getting confusing as to what is where.

But I'm not saying that jobs are truly meaningless, that came out wrong. I meant that jobs can sometimes be consolidated to reduce the number of cadets that occupy these positions. For example: in my unit, our Current Operations Officer includes not only the Current Operations Officer duties, but also that of community service, comptroller, and recruiting. This is because my unit doesn't have the manpower for many staff officers (we've consolidated all staff duties under 4 primary staff officers).

And I never knew that HQ would mandate a unit's level of structure. I don't think that is a good policy if they do. In my opinion, the cadets, and ultimately the SASI should be deciding on unit structure because they are there and know what each cadet is capable of. And I understand the SASI mandating an organizational structure, and the only time a unit should change its structure is when it can be more efficient. But the SASI should also realize when a unit is not proficient enough.

[StormCrow]

well you have to think of it this way...in the real military, you will always have someone telling you how they want it, and that it is not negotiable. Our job as cadets is to take it and run with it. As far as consolidating job duties...that's where your Command Chief comes in...the command chief should be the one that can tell you how many cadets you have off the top of his head...exactly. He/She should be the one that you turn to and say, "Do you think that that this person can handle this work load?" But ultimately you have to think, about if that...if condensing and consolidating job duties can be handled be those who they are being consolidated to.

Storm

[amarine'slittlegrunt]

My Unit Starts our Cadets off at Cadet Airman Basic. And from there, they have to earn their ranking. I think bending those rules in my Unit now would cause a lot of controversy over things. Though, we do have what is called Permanent rank. Which means, if you are a Sophomore and that is you 1st year in the class, you will automatically be brought up to a certain rank.



-AMLG :drill:

[flyBoy2010]

We have a similar system where every grade has a base rank and even if you have never done anything in the corps but you are a senior then you are C/SSgt.

[StormCrow]

There will be controversy in a unit no matter how you look at it. But basically if you are an AS-2 it is required be regulation that you start your AS-2 year as a Cadet Airman.

Storm

[flyBoy2010]

We do it more by grade than AS level. But it is still the same concept.
Sorry, Seniors are C/SRA, not C/SSgt

[StormCrow]

Well,

To each his own...I mean whatever floats your boat. In my opinion if the instructor allows approves an AS-4 application and that senior is only a C/SSGT...there's something wrong.

Storm

[TruBlu]

I'm pretty sure that permanent grades are an AFJROTC standard, set by HQ. Actually, I know they are, I just don't have the regulation binder at my house so I can't exactly quote but each cadet has a permanent grade commensurate with their Aerospace Year (AS1=c/Amn, AS2=c/A1C, AS3=c/SrA, AS4=c/SSgt). Sorry about not citing a reference, but I just don't have that available.

[flyBoy2010]

If the AS-1 permanent rank is C/Arm then what happened to C/AB?

[TruBlu]

If the AS-1 permanent rank is C/Arm then what happened to C/AB?

You have to promote each cadet at least one time by the end of the year, therefore, permanent grade being c/Amn. I'm not saying I agree with it, just saying what it is. Once again no reference on my part, this is driving me mad lol!

[flyBoy2010]

The way my SASI does it permanent rank for AS-1s is C/AB at the end of the year/the beginning of the next year, they are promoted to C/Arm.
That of course being the worst case scenario. If the cadet is more active, then they will get more promotions.

[TruBlu]

The way my SASI does it permanent rank for AS-1s is C/AB at the end of the year/the beginning of the next year, they are promoted to C/Arm.
That of course being the worst case scenario. If the cadet is more active, then they will get more promotions.

Of course, of course. But I still don't like the idea of free promotions, as I've seen cadets who absolutely hate AFJROTC and just take it because we don't have homework, and the course itself is fairly easy. There was this one cadet, she was a senior last year, and was an NCO (c/SSgt), just because she sat in a desk and slept for FOUR YEARS!!! Stupid...

But what your SASI is doing is by the regulations for sure, hes promoting them to their permanent grade, just either at the end of one year or the start of their next.

[flyBoy2010]

There was this one cadet, she was a senior last year, and was an NCO (c/SSgt), just because she sat in a desk and slept for FOUR YEARS!!!

We have had some cadets like that, but if they don't wear the uniform, don't participate, or don't do the work...

F!

[TruBlu]

We have had some cadets like that, but if they don't wear the uniform, don't participate, or don't do the work...

F!

LOL! That's the thing. She had it down to a science, she new exactly how much (or how little I guess) she had to do to make a 70. It was ridiculous, like instead of applying herself in the class, she would apply herself to find out how little she actually had to do. It was an odd situation really.

[flyBoy2010]

I think it is sad that there are people who would rather put their efforts into getting away with as little as they can when if the same effort had been put into just doing the work, they would be accomplishing what they had been asked to do.

[TruBlu]

I think it is sad that there are people who would rather put their efforts into getting away with as little as they can when if the same effort had been put into just doing the work, they would be accomplishing what they had been asked to do.

Not only that, but I wish some people would just think about things overall. That bad grade, although may be passing, will only lower your GPA (lets hope not raise it with a score like that), and only hurts you even more. If its one thing I can't stand, its when people don't realize that these "small" decisions to not pull their own weight will drag them right back down.

[TruBlu]

[QUOTE=StormCrow;928]120...Would that make you a Group or a Squadron, because that really isn't even close to being a wing.

This way I can tell you who is responsible for passing along the recommended questions because it should be the closest executive commander to the cadet. Executive type commands start at the squadron level normally, but in a unit that is a squadron that responsibility can fall to the Flight Commander or even the Element Leader.

If your unit is a Group or a Wing the suggested material should come from the squadron commander in concurrence with the Flight Commander. If your Unit is any smaller than that, that the material should come from the Flight Commander in concurrence with the Element leader, and Flight Sergeant.

Storm[/QUOT

It could be both, but oh well. Here is how it works.....My unit is divided up into two squadrons. Each squadron has three flights(classes). In those flights we have four elements. Each element has three to four cadets in it.......once I can get a chart, I will post it. :mp:

I'd like to see it for sure. How is your staff organized? Is it integrated within the Operational Squadrons, or are their Support Squadrons?

[flyBoy2010]

When you get the chart let me know.
I would sure like to see it.

[C.A.P. Flight Officer]

120...Would that make you a Group or a Squadron, because that really isn't even close to being a wing.

This way I can tell you who is responsible for passing along the recommended questions because it should be the closest executive commander to the cadet. Executive type commands start at the squadron level normally, but in a unit that is a squadron that responsibility can fall to the Flight Commander or even the Element Leader.

If your unit is a Group or a Wing the suggested material should come from the squadron commander in concurrence with the Flight Commander. If your Unit is any smaller than that, that the material should come from the Flight Commander in concurrence with the Element leader, and Flight Sergeant.

Storm

It could be both, but oh well. Here is how it works.....My unit is divided up into two squadrons. Each squadron has three flights(classes). In those flights we have four elements. Each element has three to four cadets in it.......once I can get a chart, I will post it. :mp:

[C.A.P. Flight Officer]

[QUOTE=C/Colonel;1273]

I'd like to see it for sure. How is your staff organized? Is it integrated within the Operational Squadrons, or are their Support Squadrons?


My unit has an Operation Commander and a Mission Support Commander. Operation is third in command and mission support is fourth...... Under the Operation Commander we have only unit staff, and under the Mission Support Commander are the two squadrons......... Don't get me started on the staff positions, some of them are pointless. :mp:

[TruBlu]

[QUOTE=TruBlu;1278]


My unit has an Operation Commander and a Mission Support Commander. Operation is third in command and mission support is fourth...... Under the Operation Commander we have only unit staff, and under the Mission Support Commander are the two squadrons......... Don't get me started on the staff positions, some of them are pointless. :mp:

I know where you are coming from, trust me. My unit had like 13 or 15 staff positions last year, now there is like 4 or 5. But, what you just said is still setting in with me, I'm gonna have to see it lol. When you get a chance, just upload it so we can take a look see.

[C.A.P. Flight Officer]

[QUOTE=C/Colonel;1286]

I know where you are coming from, trust me. My unit had like 13 or 15 staff positions last year, now there is like 4 or 5. But, what you just said is still setting in with me, I'm gonna have to see it lol. When you get a chance, just upload it so we can take a look see.

Ok, ok, I will let you see it flyBoy2010 and TruBlu and whoever else that would like to see. We should start a new thread, because this is starting to get off topic. If you start a new thread just message me and let me know and I will continue there.

[El Supremo]

In my Squadron we all used to start off our Cadet careers as Cadet Airman Basics. This year though, all of the new Cadets are starting off as Cadet Airmen. Is this even allowed? What do you think?

While ive never participated in the Airforce branch of JROTC, I cant imagine new cadets begining their JROTC careers as E-2's (sounds absurd to me), everyone in our highschool begins as an E-1 (Private no Insignia,or PV1, or if your more familiar with PNI). PVT or PV2 as some people refer to it, regardless, E-2 is automatic after you pass your first Uniform inspection with a B or better.

[TruBlu]

[QUOTE=TruBlu;1287]

Ok, ok, I will let you see it flyBoy2010 and TruBlu and whoever else that would like to see. We should start a new thread, because this is starting to get off topic. If you start a new thread just message me and let me know and I will continue there.

Indeed, there are many discussions about the same thing in many different threads. I'll create a new one tomorrow, or someone else can, where we can focus on the "Principles of Organizational Structure." See now someone's gonna steal my title if I don't make a thread lol.

[Sickllama]

Yeah we started out as trainees Friday or the 30th we have a promotion ceremony so i get to be a Cadet Airman woot!

[Startingover]

My old unit had a time in grade standard of promoting. After every semester, your performance was evaluated and you were given eiher a 1 rank or 2 rank jump, depending on your reliability, leadership ablity, and so on.

So potentially, without a position, a senior would graduate with a minimum rank of C/Senior Master Sergeant if he did good in the class, and with a maximum achievable pay grade of O-4. Rarely we had anyone reach C/1st Lt. without a position though, we didnt have that large of a corps when I got there and when I left it got consderably smaller then.

Cadet, please pay attention to the details.

[Drill for life]

That's exactly how my old AJROTC unit operated. That week long Orientation Camp taught incoming LET-1 cadets everything we required them to know in order to advance from c/PVT to c/PV2. At the end of the week, we promoted them. In turn, they were able to turn around and help teach their peers. It's a win-win situation for all involved.

I wish my unit would do something like that. It would help the leaders out (especially me it seems me our BC, SGM, XO, and myself are doing all of our staff's job).

[Drill for life]

I know I am going off-topic but do any of your unit issue thos blank black epulats for E-1 rank. I have seen it and don't like it.

[TruBlu]

I know I am going off-topic but do any of your unit issue thos blank black epulats for E-1 rank. I have seen it and don't like it.

In AFJROTC, shoulder boards are only for Officers. No enlisted shoulder boards. I know in the AJROTC they have them, but I'm not sure about NJROTC or MCJROTC.

[Drill for life]

Oh yeah, AFJROTC,NJROTC,MCJROTC use metal chevrons for there enlisted ranks. NJROTC,MCJROTC,AJROTC,AFJROTC use metal ranks for there Officer ranks. I know some AJROTC units use metal chevron's use gold metal ranks for there enlisted ranks. I don't like the way it looks(all though it looks pretty good on the Class A jacket). When I made C/First Sergeant last year my SAI gave me real Army metal chevron's for my jacket. He said it looks way better than the boxy cadet ranks.

[flyBoy2010]

In AFJROTC, E-1's wear no rank on their class B's and have the lapel insignia (in the middle) on their class A's
http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/9841/item15a0rb.jpg
Their called "Thunder Chickens" until they reach C/Amn.

[TruBlu]

In AFJROTC, E-1's wear no rank on their class B's and have the lapel insignia (in the middle) on their class A's
http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/9841/item15a0rb.jpg
Their called "Thunder Chickens" until they reach C/Amn.

Lol, Thunder Chickens, I like it! That's what my unit used to do before cadets got c/Amn right off the bat.

[Drill for life]

I have to admit that is pretty sweet looking. Does your unit take your old rank back or do they let you keep it. Do AFJROTC cadet's wear there rank on there lapels?

[TheLegalShark]

In AFJROTC, E-1's wear no rank on their class B's and have the lapel insignia (in the middle) on their class A's
http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/9841/item15a0rb.jpg
Their called "Thunder Chickens" until they reach C/Amn.

When I was in AFJROTC (2000 - 2004) the program was switching from the shade 1608 service uniform to the shade 1620 service uniform. The Lapel insignia was worn on both collars for C/AB, C/Amn - C/CMSgt wore rank on the right collar, and the lapel insignia on the left collar, and cadet officer wore the lapel insignia on both collars with their rank on their shoulders. Personally I think it looked more professional than the way rank was worn on the 1620s.

Formerly an AFJROTC C/Col

[Drill for life]

My AI let's us wear Metal army enlisted chevrons on our sherbet shirts(class B's) with our class A's and metal for officer and cloth enlisted on our epualets.

[OrienteeringOH]

All Cadets in my unit begin as C/AB in their AS-1 year. Cadets who are designated as an Element Leader for the first Grading Period (9 Weeks) are given C/SrA, and Cadets designated as Flight Sergeants are given C/SSgt. E-5 on the first day of school, is pretty rediculous, but they learn fast, and adapt to their roles as NCOs.

[TruBlu]

I have to admit that is pretty sweet looking. Does your unit take your old rank back or do they let you keep it. Do AFJROTC cadet's wear there rank on there lapels?

In the Class A's (as well as BDU/ABU's), both officer and enlisted cadets wear their ranks on their lapels. In the Class B's, enlisted cadets wear their rank on the lapels; officers wear their rank as shoulder boards.

[flyBoy2010]

I have to admit that is pretty sweet looking.


No, after each promotions ceremony, we have to turn in our old ranks. Mostly because we don't have enough for everyone to have a complete set if we don't.

[Drill for life]

They have always put our old ranks in a box. THey take off our old rank and put them in this metal box and then they go and put them back in our SAI's cupboard(he keeps the tabs and the National awards in there also). We have gotten really off topic.

[Armed Drill Addict]

My AI let's us wear Metal army enlisted chevrons on our sherbet shirts(class B's) with our class A's and metal for officer and cloth enlisted on our epualets.

I'm sorry, but even if your AI does allow you to do that you still shouldn't wear them. That symbolizes the rank of a person who worked hard for years and years (especially the SNCOs) for that rank. You should be wearing the JROTC ranks even if they don't look as good.

[Drill for life]

We don't have cadet metal chevrons. He just ordered cadet metal chevrons for our Inspection.

[TruBlu]

We don't have cadet metal chevrons. He just ordered cadet metal chevrons for our Inspection.

What he is saying still applies man. You don't wear the actual rank of actual military because you are not actual military. I should have caught this earlier but I guess it just slipped past me.

And then you ask, what should we have worn? I say wear no rank over placing actual rank on you.

[Drill for life]

Wednesday is our picture day and tomorrow our AI is handing out the metal chevrons to put on our Class B shirts, he told me he ordered Cadet Chevrons. I still think they're ugly. I really like Air Force rank.

[OrienteeringOH]

I think it's interesting. I'd get my @$$ handed to me if I attempted to walk into my unit wearing REAL Captain bars, so I wouldn't do it with the enlisted chevrons either (Just me though.) Our picture day was Monday, and it was a pretty big to-do. Some of our cadets wore their uniforms for the first time, and it was rather interesting to see..:sick:

[Drill for life]

I get what your saying and I understand where your coming from but at the same time I have only had Army Enlisted chevrons. I didn't even know there was a difference until I attended JCLC. I can understand officer rank though...whoa...I understand that.

[OrienteeringOH]

Well everyones still breathing, but i've known some pretty tough looking E-9s around, so I just don't mess with it.

[Drill for life]

Well everyones still breathing, but i've known some pretty tough looking E-9s around, so I just don't mess with it.

What are you talking about?

[flyBoy2010]

What are you talking about?

He means that it's not only the officers you need to worry about impersonating.

[OrienteeringOH]

What I was refering to was active duty E-9s. I was at a drill competition once, when a C/CMSgt showed up wearing real stripes. Well, an active duty chief whirrled around and dropped the kid quicker than I can snap. And the Chief was a big Samoan guy. I wouldn't mess with it.

[Drill for life]

Oh of course not. I have never gotten trouble for the chevrons my First sergeant gave me. He makes sure we wear the Cadet ranks for ACU's they look totally different than the Army's ACU rank patches. He's fine with sybdued rank insignia though because that is all we have in the supply room.

[Armed Drill Addict]

Oh of course not. I have never gotten trouble for the chevrons my First sergeant gave me. He makes sure we wear the Cadet ranks for ACU's they look totally different than the Army's ACU rank patches. He's fine with sybdued rank insignia though because that is all we have in the supply room.

Still just because he allows you to doesn't mean you should. Be a leader and do what is right and in line with regulations. This will motivate your subordinates to follow and this will urge your AI to order cadet ranks.

[Drill for life]

How can we when we only have PFC-SSGT Cadet ranks. WE don't have any cadet chevrons higher thatn that. WE are working on it though. We're not going to need them anyway we're switching to ACU's in 2009(that is the change-over date for AJROTC)

[C/ZOOMIE]

What I was refering to was active duty E-9s. I was at a drill competition once, when a C/CMSgt showed up wearing real stripes. Well, an active duty chief whirrled around and dropped the kid quicker than I can snap. And the Chief was a big Samoan guy. I wouldn't mess with it.

Did he literally drop kick him!? I mean, I'm not saying he doesn't deserve it, I mean C'mon, wearing CMSgt insignia!? Who's THAT stupid!? But still that's kinda messed up.

[OrienteeringOH]

Oh no no. He didn't drop kick him, but when we say "dropped him" we are refering to making someone push. (pushups)

It was rather ammusing.

[C/ZOOMIE]

Oh no no. He didn't drop kick him, but when we say "dropped him" we are refering to making someone push. (pushups)

It was rather ammusing.

It woulda been amusing wither way. :D But yeah, seriously, kids. Don't wear CMSgt stripes unless you're a real Chief.........

[Drill for life]

Not stripes Chevrons.

[flyBoy2010]

Not stripes Chevrons.

Either way, it's a bad idea.

[Drill for life]

I guess so. We should really get back on topic before the Mods lock this thread down. We haven't heard from any NJROTC cadets yet. What do you start out at in your program?(E-1 or E-2(Seaman recruit, Seaman basic)

[OrienteeringOH]

Well I can't speak for certain as I was never an NJROTC cadet, however we had a similiar discussion (Myself and the NJROTC cadets) when I went to Honors Camp this past summer. The common consensus from them was to start as a Seaman Recruit, and a select few began as a Seamans apprentice. Promotions were based mostly on tests, after memorizing the Orders to the Sentry, Naval history, etc.

[Drill for life]

My mistake I mixed up Seman apprentice with seaman basic.

[Armed Drill Addict]

Yeah, all of the cadets start of as c/ Seaman Recruit. Their first promotion is based entirely on their G.P.A. and after that there is more knowledge they need to learn for each rank.

[devin0116]

I would like to back track to the whole promotion requirements thing. My unit (Group) doesn't have any set requirements or any tests/ boards. I think it would be nice to set up a system like the one that everyone is speaking of but I dont want to make it real difficult. I would like to start out simple and slowly work it up to more complex things. I would like to note that knowledge and proper execution of basic drill/marching should be required by all cadets of all ranks, im tired of seeing a c/1st Lt in my unit unable to perform a proper to the rear march.:mad::drill:

[TruBlu]

I would like to back track to the whole promotion requirements thing. My unit (Group) doesn't have any set requirements or any tests/ boards. I think it would be nice to set up a system like the one that everyone is speaking of but I dont want to make it real difficult. I would like to start out simple and slowly work it up to more complex things. I would like to note that knowledge and proper execution of basic drill/marching should be required by all cadets of all ranks, im tired of seeing a 1LT in my unit unable to perform a proper to the rear march.:mad::drill:

Don't mean to belabor the rank thing, but unless you have an Army First Lieutenant in your corps, you can't use the term 1LT... Learn cadet and Air Force abbreviation. It's c/1stLt.

I'm developing a promotion system for next year. What I've come up with is the basics: There will be a written test for every rank based on JROTC, Air Force, and general military knowledge. There could/will also be practical application tests to accompany these tests. Cadets will have a promotion log where they will have everything mapped out. There will be goals that must be met for each rank, and when they are met, that section of the log will be filled out. When everything has been accomplished or all the goals have been met to justify the next rank, they will submit their promotion log and be evaluated. Passing evaluation and/or a cadet board will merit promotion.

[Drill for life]

Don't mean to belabor the rank thing, but unless you have an Army First Lieutenant in your corps, you can't use the term 1LT... Learn cadet and Air Force abbreviation. It's c/1stLt.

I'm developing a promotion system for next year. What I've come up with is the basics: There will be a written test for every rank based on JROTC, Air Force, and general military knowledge. There could/will also be practical application tests to accompany these tests. Cadets will have a promotion log where they will have everything mapped out. There will be goals that must be met for each rank, and when they are met, that section of the log will be filled out. When everything has been accomplished or all the goals have been met to justify the next rank, they will submit their promotion log and be evaluated. Passing evaluation and/or a cadet board will merit promotion.

I really like that idea and really wish my unit would utilize test for promotions instead of Meritous promotions and promotions based on position.

[TruBlu]

I really like that idea and really wish my unit would utilize test for promotions instead of Meritous promotions and promotions based on position.

Me to, that's why I'm putting it together. You still have time to at least start something in your unit. I'm sure your SAI and fellow cadets would love to have a more structured and "make sense" procedure. Get out and do it! Someone has to initiate when they recognize a problem, and if everyone "wishes" no one will do. So stop wishing and do it lol...

[devin0116]

Sorry about that, I am still trying to get used to whole grammar and proper title stuff.

[FuturePilot09]

Hi, at least in my Unit, ALL of our cadets (regardless of grade) in their first year, begin with C/AB. After the first nine-weeks, they gain C/Amn. Later Promotion Boards starting in October (after the first nine-weeks) deem if certain cadets require a promotion based on grades, attendance, and activity.

FuturePilot09

[C/Msgt.wraith]

In my unit,(sqaudron) we have the same rules and it gets really annoying because everybody goes through the ranks so quickly. I personally think that there should be a test of some sort to determine promotions.

[TruBlu]

In my unit,(sqaudron) we have the same rules and it gets realy annoying because everybody goes throughn the ranks so quickly. I personally think that there should be a test of some sort to determine promotions.

We, as in me, you, and the other loyal cadets of our corps are working on that though. We are trying to develop a system where you have to test at each rank, including officer ranks, all the way to c/Col.

[Drill for life]

My SAI and AI don't care about who gets promoted except who's in the Chain of Command and my BNCO would think I'm trying to do her job.

[Lkg]

How would you integrate a promotion board with positions and your UMD? For example would your wing commander have to take a test to get their c/Col ranks ?

In my unit (squadron) cadet rank is based primarily on position. If a cadet holds a position then they are promoted to the minimum cadet rank indicated in the UMD for their position. (Example Color Guard Commander: min - c/Cap max - c/Lt. Col) If a cadet does not hold a position, then they are set at their permanent cadet rank based on their AS level.

[TruBlu]

How would you integrate a promotion board with positions and your UMD? For example would your wing commander have to take a test to get their c/Col ranks ?

In my unit (squadron) cadet rank is based primarily on position. If a cadet holds a position then they are promoted to the minimum cadet rank indicated in the UMD for their position. (Example Color Guard Commander: min - c/Cap max - c/Lt. Col) If a cadet does not hold a position, then they are set at their permanent cadet rank based on their AS level.

Well, my unit is a squadron. And yeah, the squadron CC would have to test for their rank. Otherwise he/she leads by exception, not example (some would say that's not leading at all). Also, I am a large proponent of the temporary and permanent rank theory if I may. All cadets have a permanent rank, and if they aren't serving in a particular position, they should revert to it. Temporary rank should be distributed on the basis of position. After all this is JROTC, a high school organization, not the actual military where you are actually paid commensurate to your rank.

[Lkg]

Well, my unit is a squadron. And yeah, the squadron CC would have to test for their rank. Otherwise he/she leads by exception, not example (some would say that's not leading at all). Also, I am a large proponent of the temporary and permanent rank theory if I may. All cadets have a permanent rank, and if they aren't serving in a particular position, they should revert to it. Temporary rank should be distributed on the basis of position. After all this is JROTC, a high school organization, not the actual military where you are actually paid commensurate to your rank.

I read your promotion board proposal a few pages back. Could you expand more on it? I understand the basic knowledge questions, but what did you have in mind as a "practical application test"? I'm also extremely interested in your log. I've heard of other units using promotion boards and tests as their promotion method.

I've thought about utilizing a promotion board/test for cadet rank promotions. The only conflict I can see is with the unit's UMD and positions.

[TruBlu]

I read your promotion board proposal a few pages back. Could you expand more on it? I understand the basic knowledge questions, but what did you have in mind as a "practical application test"? I'm also extremely interested in your log. I've heard of other units using promotion boards and tests as their promotion method.

All of my ideas are theory right now. I'm working with others to turn them into a reality, but it takes a lot of research and a lot of time to put something in place that will work properly.

So with that said, the testing would probably be 25 questions for the first test, then subsequent tests will have that many questions, plus lets say 5 from the previous tests (so c/Amn test has 25, ok c/A1C will have 25 plus 5 from the other one, so on and so forth). This way, cadets are being tested on new information, and being reinforced in the areas of most importance from other sections. Lets just stay basic though, literally. The test is 25 multiple choice questions. 15-20 of those questions would be "basic knowledge." The other 5-10 questions would be application questions that describe hypothetical situations where cadets would have to apply their "basic knowledge." It would enforce the fact that while you need to know everything, you also need to know how to use it.

The log was an interesting idea that I had but haven't been able to expand on the idea very much since then. Basically this is what I've got: There would be a sheet of paper (or collection of them), aka the "log," for each individual cadet. In that log there would be a chart showing each rank and the requirements of each rank with little "check boxes" to keep track of completion of tasks for each rank. Lets keep it basic once again. Say your tasks for c/AB to c/Amn are as follows: pass a basic knowledge test (70% to 80% is where I would place the pass/fail mark) and have a time in "service" of 3 months. On their log there would be those two categories with "check boxes." Once the cadet completes a task, it is checked off. Once they have everything checked off, they submit their log for promotion, and they are promoted.

Now for this to work properly, there has to be some security set up. Each log would be under lock in a file cabinet, with the jurisdiction falling under the Personnel Officer. Cadets could request their log from the Personnel Officer to get their tasks checked off. Along with those "check boxes," their would be a signature element for each one. The signature element would have to be signed by the person in charge of each task. For example: The basic knowledge test could be distributed by the Vice Commander, so he/she would have to sign off each cadet if they pass. The time in "service" section could be determined by the Personnel Officer, so he/she would have to sign off each cadet in that area. So, once each cadet has the proper signatures and has everything filled out, he/she can submit it for promotion.

There is also the deal with a promotion board. For some ranks, cadets may have to see a panel to get promoted. This would be done only after the cadet in question has received all signatures for his/her tasks. Then he/she would submit the log and await the board to call upon them. Once the cadet sees the board, they make their decision whether or not the cadet is material for the next rank.

I've thought about utilizing a promotion board/test for cadet rank promotions. The only conflict I can see is with the unit's UMD and positions.

What would be the conflict with your unit's unit manning document and the positions it contains? I don't think there would be any conflicting discretion at all.

[Drill for life]

Trublu I love you right now:inlove:. I was thinking of how to do promotion's next year in my Battalion(our promotions are out of hand, Cadets who need to be promoted aren't and Cadets who don't need to be promoted are, you get the picture). We have had the biggest problem with Cadets knowing there Knowledge, this will help us a whole lot(as it will make it required to make C/PV2) . Thanks man I appreciate it
C/1LT Drill for life

[TruBlu]

Trublu I love you right now:inlove:. I was thinking of how to do promotion's next year in my Battalion(our promotions are out of hand, Cadets who need to be promoted aren't and Cadets who don't need to be promoted are, you get the picture). We have had the biggest problem with Cadets knowing there Knowledge, this will help us a whole lot(as it will make it required to make C/PV2) . Thanks man I appreciate it
C/1LT Drill for life

That's what I'm here for. It's all theory of course, and has yet to prove itself upon my own witnessing, but if executed the way posted, I believe it would work quite well. The only point of failure, that I can recognize really, is the cadet in question. But to counter that, the Personnel Officer would keep records physically (the one the cadet may obtain) and electronically (only access to the Personnel Officer). Of course a Personnel Officer not doing his/her job could result in a second point of failure, and to counter that would be nearly impossible, as you would simply have to replace him/her. If you are going to execute an idea such as this, make sure you have reliable people backing it.

[devin0116]

TruBlu I have a question. The "time of service" what would you like or think this should be. I mean it will hard to get officers if they have to go through every rank with a certain amount of time. Or will you implement the "they choose their fate" theory here. Where they choose to be NCO's or Officers?

[flyBoy2010]

TruBlu I have a question. The "time of service" what would you like or think this should be. I mean it will hard to get officers if they have to go through every rank with a certain amount of time. Or will you implement the "they choose their fate" theory here. Where they choose to be NCO's or Officers?

The "time of service" in our unit is pretty simple. 1 month as C/AB, 1 month as C/A1C, the 1 quarter as C/Sra - C/CMSgt. After that each rank is based on merit and promotion boards. Also, to get officer, all cadets must fill out an officer evaluation form. This needs to be signed by all of their teachers and includes things like grades, attendance, and attitude. If the officer evaluation in unsatisfactory, the cadet remains enlisted.

[TruBlu]

TruBlu I have a question. The "time of service" what would you like or think this should be. I mean it will hard to get officers if they have to go through every rank with a certain amount of time. Or will you implement the "they choose their fate" theory here. Where they choose to be NCO's or Officers?

The time in service in this situation, or TIS, is a little more in depth than the standard TIS. It's not more complicated or harder to understand, there is just an added level to it. Bear with me as I explain my thoughts on the TIS idea.

I don't know if I covered this before, but my idea of the "grand promotion system" relies on a maximum of 3 promotions a year for cadets. That means the max rank would break down like this: "Career enlisted" cadet: AS1=c/SrA, AS2=c/MSgt, AS3=c/SMSgt (let me get back to why that's not 3), AS4 = c/CMSgt. "Enlisted to officer" cadet: AS1=c/SrA, AS2=c/MSgt, AS3=c/Capt, AS4=c/Col. Also, because my unit is on a modified block schedule (contains some year long and semester classes), and others may also, I want to explain another dimension of the TIS. A "year" for one cadet may not be a "year" for another. For example, a semester class student gets one years time in only one semester, while a year long student gets the same time over one year. This offers a potential in conflict of rank, because if cadets are promoted on the same calendar system, then cadets in the year long classes expend their promotion room faster. Following?

OK, so lets break it down in 4 ways: A "career enlisted" cadet who has a year long class every year (1). A "enlisted to officer" cadet who has a year long class every year (2). A "career enlisted" cadet who has a semester class every year (3). A "enlisted to officer" cadet who has a semester class every year (4).

1. "Career enlisted" with year long: The cadet will be on a standard promotion track. There are 180 days to his/her "year." Lets divide that by 3 to get a basic. Ok, the cadet is available for promotion every 60 days. During his/her third year (because the first two are exactly the same for any of the four cadets), he/she is only eligible for 2 promotions (this leaves the highest rank only attainable to AS4s). Divide the year by 2 and the cadet is available for promotion every 90 days. During the last year, he/she would be eligible after 90 days.

2. "Enlisted to officer" with year long: The cadet will be on a standard promotion track. There are 180 days to his/her "year." Divide that by 3 and the cadet is available for promotion every 60 days the entire time he/she is in.

3. "Career enlisted" with semester: The cadet will be on a fast promotion track. There are 90 days to his/her "year." Divide that by 3 and the cadet is available for promotion every 30 days. During his/her AS3 and AS4 years, the cadet is available for promotion every 45 days.

4. "Enlisted to officer" with year long: The cadet will be on a fast promotion track. There are 90 days to his/her "year." Divide that by 3 and the cadet is available for promotion every 30 days the entire time he/she is in.

Of course cadets may or may not have these classes their entire high school career. You would take the basic idea out of each of the four, and match them to the situation the cadet is in for that year. Then you promotion track follows it regardless of what type of class he/she gets. Some may say, "that's unfair to the year long people, and it could be discouraging to them to see everyone else be promoted so quickly." My rebuttal: "The TIS is in reference to how much time is spent in the class itself. Because semester classes have twice the amount of time in one day (to make up for the lack of a second semester), they are eligible for promotion twice as quickly. At the end of the AS year (the only one that matters), cadets have had the exact same amount of TIS."

Well, that was fun. Questions?

[Lkg]

What would be the conflict with your unit's unit manning document and the positions it contains? I don't think there would be any conflicting discretion at all.

One I can think of is if a cadet already in a position and fails to meet the requirements of being promoted to the minimum cadet rank indicated for their position. (either failing a test or board, not appear for either, or not meet the time standards, etc.) I think the log/promotion board/test would work well in a well established unit. Even more important who ever is keeping track of it must do it efficiently and accurately.

I do have a few suggestions that I've seen other units do for promotion boards and logs.

For the log it might be helpful if you receive input on the cadet's performance from their superiors. Maybe a simple box at the bottom of their log for each cadet rank that has a (P)romote or (D)o not promote with a detail or remarks box for comments. This way you can get another opinion from someone interacts with the cadet on a day to day basis.

Also near the bottom you may want to add a list of all the cadet ranks and write in the date they were promoted. Then the following year all you will have to do (at least for returning cadets) is transcribe the dates onto their new copy for the year (presuming you start a new sheet each year). Then file the old logs from the previous year. This will keep two back up copies if something were to happen.

[TruBlu]

One I can think of is if a cadet already in a position and fails to meet the requirements of being promoted to the minimum cadet rank indicated for their position. (either failing a test or board, not appear for either, or not meet the time standards, etc.) I think the log/promotion board/test would work well in a well established unit. Even more important who ever is keeping track of it must do it efficiently and accurately.

If they fail to meet it, why should they attain the rank. The point is to weed out those who may not be able to perform at the wanted level. And how would a well established unit ever adopt something like this? At some point in time, they would have had to go out on a limb and break down ranks and maybe some people would be disappointed. This is better implemented when a unit is new. Waiting any longer to implement change only prolongs the inevitable: You will catch flak and praise, and the cadets that realize what is going on is good will be the ones praising you, and that's what really matters.

For the log it might be helpful if you receive input on the cadet's performance from their superiors. Maybe a simple box at the bottom of their log for each cadet rank that has a (P)romote or (D)o not promote with a detail or remarks box for comments. This way you can get another opinion from someone interacts with the cadet on a day to day basis.

An idea that I've thought about. Here's my answer to it: Nay, except in the situation where they see a board. If a cadet has disciplinary problems that may hold them back from a promotion, they will be logged and it may or may not be a requirement on the log for a cadet to have no disciplinary problems. Having a direct commander section poses a problem because then singular, personal opinion becomes a factor, a bad idea when dealing with a cadet's future. That is why boards for some ranks are much better, because they offer multiple views and opinions.

Also near the bottom you may want to add a list of all the cadet ranks and write in the date they were promoted. Then the following year all you will have to do (at least for returning cadets) is transcribe the dates onto their new copy for the year (presuming you start a new sheet each year). Then file the old logs from the previous year. This will keep two back up copies if something were to happen.

Certainly a good idea. But, the way I would do it, and yes it's more paper and more space, is to keep the old logs and file them along with it. That way there is a full history.

[c/ltdan2192]

I think that as far as promotions go you should have them on a system kind of like the Boy Scouts where you have to have certain achievements, certain TIG, and holding a position for a certain amount of time. Also I would include a promo board for at least the higher ranks, such as c/TSgt.-c/CMSgt, and all officers.
I would also have a certain evaluation to include things like general knowledge, unit knowledge, and overall attitude towards JROTC.

[devin0116]

My school is on block scheduleing as well. (4 classes a day at 1 1/2 hours each) so 1 semester is a year to the TIS for block scheduleing? If that makes sense.

[TruBlu]

My school is on block scheduleing as well. (4 classes a day at 1 1/2 hours each) so 1 semester is a year to the TIS for block scheduleing? If that makes sense.

Yes, because 1 AS credit counts as one year.

[Lkg]

If they fail to meet it, why should they attain the rank. The point is to weed out those who may not be able to perform at the wanted level. And how would a well established unit ever adopt something like this? At some point in time, they would have had to go out on a limb and break down ranks and maybe some people would be disappointed. This is better implemented when a unit is new. Waiting any longer to implement change only prolongs the inevitable: You will catch flak and praise, and the cadets that realize what is going on is good will be the ones praising you, and that's what really matters.

You missed my point. I agree that if a cadet fails a test or board they should not receive the rank. However by denying the cadet their promotion you are not following the UMD. That is what I meant by a possible conflict with the unit's UMD and a promotion board/test. You might want to account for that situation in your promotion board/test. Such as putting the cadet on a probation until the next promotion cycle.

It would be easier to implement in a well established unit because you would already have a strong leadership base. In comparison to a brand new unit starting their first year with absolutely no leadership base what so ever.

As for flak or praise neither should ever hold any importance when it comes to promotion. The bottom line is that those who deserve to be promote are. Those that do not deserve to be promoted should not be.


An idea that I've thought about. Here's my answer to it: Nay, except in the situation where they see a board. If a cadet has disciplinary problems that may hold them back from a promotion, they will be logged and it may or may not be a requirement on the log for a cadet to have no disciplinary problems. Having a direct commander section poses a problem because then singular, personal opinion becomes a factor, a bad idea when dealing with a cadet's future. That is why boards for some ranks are much better, because they offer multiple views and opinions.

The section would also allow for praise not just for disciplinary problems. A commander's personal opinion should be a factor in the cadet's promotion. I think you misunderstood it as being the sole factor instead of a partial factor of a cadet's promotion. It is the promotions board opinion that a cadet be promoted, but it is the SASI's final say. However it is more than likely the SASI will agree with the board's opinion. The SASI's singular, personal opinion out weighs the board's decision.

Once again just a suggestion. I wish you the best of luck applying the promotion board/test in your unit.

[TruBlu]

You missed my point. I agree that if a cadet fails a test or board they should not receive the rank. However by denying the cadet their promotion you are not following the UMD. That is what I meant by a possible conflict with the unit's UMD and a promotion board/test. You might want to account for that situation in your promotion board/test. Such as putting the cadet on a probation until the next promotion cycle.

Where does the AF mandate that "denying a cadet of promotion is not following the UMD?" The UMD is a guide for cadets to use in reference to the maximum rank of positions and the number of cadets allowed to hold said positions. I've never seen anything dictating a minimum rank, and I'm quite familiar with the LE1 text and AFJROTCI 36-2001 now.

It would be easier to implement in a well established unit because you would already have a strong leadership base. In comparison to a brand new unit starting their first year with absolutely no leadership base what so ever.

I disagree. In the situation of a new unit, the leadership base is the instructor(s). The instructors implement and then teach the cadets. How do you think all of the units started?

As for flak or praise neither should ever hold any importance when it comes to promotion. The bottom line is that those who deserve to be promote are. Those that do not deserve to be promoted should not be.

The section would also allow for praise not just for disciplinary problems. A commander's personal opinion should be a factor in the cadet's promotion.

Could you please clarify your statements, you are contradicting yourself entirely.

[Lkg]

Where does the AF mandate that "denying a cadet of promotion is not following the UMD?" The UMD is a guide for cadets to use in reference to the maximum rank of positions and the number of cadets allowed to hold said positions. I've never seen anything dictating a minimum rank, and I'm quite familiar with the LE1 text and AFJROTCI 36-2001 now.


6.1.2. The organizational structure must reflect the actual functions of the corps with command, staff, and rank identified. The functional organization can be any logical form consistent with military organizational principles. AFJROTC Instructors may add appropriate positions within the cadet corps organization as required.

6.1.3. Job descriptions are required for each cadet corps position. Titles and office symbols will conform to standard Air Force nomenclature. The AFJROTC Instructors will develop a Unit Manning Document that clearly indicates unit structure and chain of command. Additionally, provide an organizational chart showing all designated cadet corps positions and job descriptions in a location accessible to the entire cadet corps.

6.2.2. See Table 6.1 for maximum grade authorizations for a cadet corps are:



Taken from AFJROTCI 36-2001 http://www.maxwell.af.mil/msd/pubs/afoatsi/afjrotci36-2001.pdf

It is against the UMD it self, as each UMD is made by the unit instructors. You asked about MY unit's UMD, and in MY unit's UMD there is a set minimum rank and maximum rank for each position. I did not say that AFJROTCI 36-2001 "mandate that "denying a cadet of promotion is not following the UMD?"" I said that denying a cadet promotion may conflict with a unit's UMD. If the minimum cadet rank for the personnel superintendent is c/TSgt and the cadet is a c/SSgt then it IS in conflict with the UMD. The UMD states the minimum cadet rank allowed for that position is c/TSgt.


What would be the conflict with your unit's unit manning document and the positions it contains? I don't think there would be any conflicting discretion at all.

Now to address the maximum/minimum issue. In 6.1.2. of AFJROTCI 36-2001 it states instructors "may add appropriate positions within the cadet corps organization as required" and that it is the instructor's job to make sure "organizational structure must reflect the actual functions of the corps with command, staff, and rank identified." I believe my instructors concluded that "rank identified" to mean that a cadet in a position should be appointed to the cadet rank identified with that position (minimum cadet rank and maximum cadet rank).

Your correct in that it does state a maximum rank, as in 6.2.2. and Table 6.1 of AFJROTCI 36-2001. If you look at the chart it only lists a few cadet positions such as Wing Commander and Mission Support Group Commander. What would be the maximum cadet rank positions of positions not listed then? It is up the instructors to make sure the "organizational structure must reflect the actual functions of the corps with command, staff, and rank identified." (EX. Personnel Superintendent) Instructors build a UMD in accordance with AFJROTCI 36-2001 but also in accordance with their unit.


I disagree. In the situation of a new unit, the leadership base is the instructor(s). The instructors implement and then teach the cadets. How do you think all of the units started?

I have been in a first year unit and I know from experience the trials and tribulations of starting a new unit. Yes the instructors are the leadership base. However it is about the cadets learning leadership and to which I was referring to. I will guarantee that most cadets have learned just as much from their instructors as from their commanders.

Could you please clarify your statements, you are contradicting yourself entirely.


I believe you have misunderstood. You have combined two of my quotes quotes, on two completely separate and different issues. The first portion of my quote:

"As for flak or praise neither should ever hold any importance when it comes to promotion. The bottom line is that those who deserve to be promote are. Those that do not deserve to be promoted should not be."

is in reference to your statement:

"Waiting any longer to implement change only prolongs the inevitable: You will catch flak and praise, and the cadets that realize what is going on is good will be the ones praising you, and that's what really matters."

Which I perceived as catching flak and praise for the actual promotion system. As I said it should not matter if cadets complain or cheer in joy. You should not be afraid to implement something because you are concerned of the flak you will receive, nor should you implement it just for praise. Any new system that will be implemented should be done for the betterment of the unit. I hope that clarifies my statement. I was not referring to cadet promotions, but the actual system you wish to apply.

My second quote:

"The section would also allow for praise not just for disciplinary problems. A commander's personal opinion should be a factor in the cadet's promotion."

is in reference to your quote:

An idea that I've thought about. Here's my answer to it: Nay, except in the situation where they see a board. If a cadet has disciplinary problems that may hold them back from a promotion, they will be logged and it may or may not be a requirement on the log for a cadet to have no disciplinary problems. Having a direct commander section poses a problem because then singular, personal opinion becomes a factor, a bad idea when dealing with a cadet's future. That is why boards for some ranks are much better, because they offer multiple views and opinions.

In my quote I was specifically referring to a cadet's promotion, not a system as we had discussed in the previous quote. The praise would allow for positive feedback instead of just negative feedback for the cadets (referring to the disciplinary problems). A remarks section would allow praise or a rebuke by the commander. I hope that clarifies for you.

This topic seems to be moving to an argument over a selective topic and has moved further away from the actual purpose of the topic. I'll leave the subject alone after this post. Once again I wish you the best TruBlu implementing the system and I hope you will keep us informed on how well it works.

[TruBlu]

This topic seems to be moving to an argument over a selective topic and has moved further away from the actual purpose of the topic.

I didn't mean for you to take it as an argument, but I see where some of my statements could be considered argumentative. When I spoke of maximum grade authorizations, I was referring to AFJROTC in general, not specific units. Maybe I should have in the context of our conversation. But I must say that your quote further solidifies my statements about maximum grades. But that doesn't matter, it really doesn't, because AFJROTCI 36-2001 is a generalized guideline for a lot of topics, as you have pointed out. It's true, it does not in fact include all cadet positions, and that is actually an example of a Cadet Wing, nothing else. Even when you look into the LE1 book, the AFJROTC's most comprehensive guide for organizational structure as of right now (a whopping 8 or 10 pages...), there isn't much in the way of "do it this way." I believe AFOATS wanted AFJROTC units to be able to mold into units that best suit their varying sizes and capabilities. One of the great advantages, but also disadvantage to our units.

Well back on topic, I've got those promotion logs that I was talking about done. Pretty quick I think, but myself and c/ltdan2192 have slaved over them today and gotten a finished product. I've got them attached so check the bottom of the post.

Now for explanation of each part.

Cadet Enlisted Promotion Log

-Four parts to every rank, with the only exception being c/AB as that rank is issued upon entrance.

--From c/Amn thru c/SrA, there are two tests for each rank, plus a time in grade (TIG), and a time in service (TIS).
---The two tests are variations of a basic AFJROTC knowledge test and a basic drill test. Each rank will have successive tests getting harder and more depth in questioning as the cadet advances.
---The TIG is the amount of time the cadet has spent at their current rank. After that allotted time, the cadet is eligible in that section.
---The TIS is the amount of time the cadet has spent in their current AS year. After that allotted time, the cadet is eligible in that section.

--c/SSgt and c/TSgt, there is one test each, a cadet board review, a TIG, and a TIS.
---The tests will be variations of PT knowledge, but not necessarily performance. The idea is so that they are fully prepared to exercise, teach, and lead within their flight as Flight Sergeants. PT tests based on cadet performance can be discouraging, and in a unit as small as mine, that is a no go.
---The board will be a panel of three cadets: the Vice Commander, First Sergeant, and another officer (more than likely the Current Operations Officer or Color Guard Commander, a cadet with a good understanding of discipline and performance).
---TIG and TIS are both lengthened.

--c/MSgt and c/SMSgt, there is one test each, a cadet board review, a TIG, and a TIS.
---The tests will be variations of military knowledge. These are to develop a well rounded curriculum, not just AF and AFJROTC knowledge.
---The board, TIG, and TIS are the same.

--c/CMSgt has one test, an instructor board review, a TIG, and a TIS.
---The test will be the final military knowledge test.
---The board will be composed of our SASI and two ASI's. They will evaluate the cadet and determine whether or not he/she is prepared for the Chief rank.
---The TIG and TIS are both lengthened.

Cadet Officer Promotion Log

-Four parts to each rank.

--c/2d Lt has three tests and one prerequisite.
---The tests include a drill command test (so the cadet is prepared to command a flight in drill), a flight management test (so the cadet is prepared to run a flight efficiently), and a leadership situations test (so the cadet is prepared to handle situations that he/she will encounter).
---The prerequisite will be that they have graduated Cadet Officer Leadership School.
---There is not TIG or TIS because the cadet is advancing to a separate track of promotions.

--c/1st Lt has one test, a cadet board review, a TIG, and a TIS.
---The test will be a staff management test so the cadet is prepared to command and operate a staff.
---The board, TIG, and TIS will be the same as before.

--c/Capt has one test, a cadet board review, a TIG, and a TIS.
---The test will be a corps management test so the cadet is prepared to command and operate the entire corps.
---The board, TIG, and TIS will be the same as before.

--c/Maj thru c/Col, one test, an instructor board review, a TIG, and a TIS.
---The tests will be variations of military knowledge, the very same as the cadet SNCOs.
---The instructor board will be the same as the c/CMSgt's.
---The TIG and TIG will be the same as before.

Calculating TIG and TIS
As mentioned before, there are block and there are "A-B" schedules, and then there is a mixture. Here's how we broke it down:

AS1: 180 days per, divided by 3 promotions per. This gives a promotion every 60 days. To allow time to wear the ranks, and to allow for more testing, we took one-third off of the time, giving every 40 days for promotion. For semester classes, they go on a fast track promotion system, so you divide the final by 2 to get every 20 days. Also, the days are school days only, not to include weekends or holidays.

AS2: 180 days per, divided by 2 promotions per. This gives a promotion every 90 days. Take one-third off again and you get every 60 days. Divide it by 2 for semester classes to get every 30 days.

AS3 Enlisted: Same as AS2.

AS3 Officer: 180 days per, divided by 3 promotions per. This gives a promotion every 60 days. Take one-third off and you get every 40 days. Divide it by 2 for semester classes to get every 20 days.

AS4 Enlisted: 180 days per, divided by 1 promotion per. This gives a promotion on the 180th day. Take one-third off and you get it on the 120th. Divide it by 2 for semester classes to get 60 days.

AS4 Officer: Same as AS3 officer.

Time before retaking tests has yet to be discussed, but it will probably be a short period, 20 days max for standard classes (actually a month), 10 days for semester classes (actually 2 weeks).

I hope you guys get something out of it.

[flyBoy2010]

TruBlu you are amazing!:D I know this wasn't for me but I still think I will use this next year when I am (hopefully) corps commander.

[TruBlu]

TruBlu you are amazing!:D I know this wasn't for me but I still think I will use this next year when I am (hopefully) corps commander.

LOL, it's not just me man. c/ltdan2192 is my cohort here.

[C/Msgt.wraith]

LOL, it's not just me man. c/ltdan2192 is my cohort here.

I heard from Lt. Dan this morning that you guys have finally figured out the finale structure for all the changes we want to implement. Mind Explaining?

[devin0116]

You never cease to amaze us TruBlu, and my props go out to you Dan as well. Now the questions.
1. Why are there 2 tests for the early enlisted ranks?

2. I don't really understand your time in service and time in grade explanation on calculating it do you mind trying to break it down a bit?

Much appreciated,
devin0116 :marine:

[TruBlu]

I heard from Lt. Dan this morning that you guys have finally figured out the finale structure for all the changes we want to implement. Mind Explaining?

We will talk more about the exact details off of the forum. Try to find some time to come in during Charlie Flight and I'll fill you in.


1. Why are there 2 tests for the early enlisted ranks?

2. I don't really understand your time in service and time in grade explanation on calculating it do you mind trying to break it down a bit?


Those three early ranks set up the foundation for the cadets, and those two tests and variations of those tests will build that foundation. A cadet board for those grades seems overwhelming, partially because of the large amount of cadets in those capacities, and because those reviewing them have not had ample time to know the situation each of those cadets are in.

The TIG and TIS are simple, and are based on the same principle: Cadets need to put the time in to get their rank. Now how we broke it down was this: We took the number of school days in a standard year, then divided by the amount of promotions allowed for that year (whether that be officer or enlisted). Then we subtracted one-third from that quotient to allow for a "buffer" so that cadets have time to wear ranks and if need be retake tests. The final was this: If the cadet is in a semester class, which is half of the actual days of a full year but still the same time per say, you divide it further by two. Re-read the math I did in the previous post and couple it with this, you should have a good understanding. If not, be specific so I can sort it out with you further.

[C/Msgt.wraith]

We will talk more about the exact details off of the forum. Try to find some time to come in during Charlie Flight and I'll fill you in.



Those three early ranks set up the foundation for the cadets, and those two tests and variations of those tests will build that foundation. A cadet board for those grades seems overwhelming, partially because of the large amount of cadets in those capacities, and because those reviewing them have not had ample time to know the situation each of those cadets are in.

The TIG and TIS are simple, and are based on the same principle: Cadets need to put the time in to get their rank. Now how we broke it down was this: We took the number of school days in a standard year, then divided by the amount of promotions allowed for that year (whether that be officer or enlisted). Then we subtracted one-third from that quotient to allow for a "buffer" so that cadets have time to wear ranks and if need be retake tests. The final was this: If the cadet is in a semester class, which is half of the actual days of a full year but still the same time per say, you divide it further by two. Re-read the math I did in the previous post and couple it with this, you should have a good understanding. If not, be specific so I can sort it out with you further.

I'll try to come but I can't make any promises.

[Drill for life]

Either way, it's a bad idea.

It's like pulling on a donkey's tail(he's gonna kick you).