Problems keeping my unit alive.

[usmckeith]

I am the Mission Support Squadron Commander for my unit and also the most likely choice for Group Commander next year (I'm the only junior above the rank of c/SMSgt). In my sophomore year we were without an SASI (our full Col retired, but we now have a LtCol after a year without an SASI) and we lost our PE credentials. Since then things have been going downhill. We have a total of 41 cadets at this very second. There is a lack of motivation, dedication, and discipline in my unit. We have an extremely lazy promotion system as well. I fear that our program may crumble and die next year without proper guidance. And to make matters even worse, our CMSgt ASI is retiring after my year graduates, so my unit needs to be kicked in the butt and rolling before then. I was wondering if anyone has any tips on how to improve our recruiting, such as examples on the way your unit does it. And it would be VERY much appreciated to recieve tips on how to command a unit effectively and authoritatively.

[Drill for life]

I have never had to pull my unit out of a rut this big but I can help you with recruiting.

P.M. Inbound.

[TruBlu]

I'm not much for recruiting, but I can possibly help with your command and promotion system. Can you describe your current CoC, promotion system, and specific problems?

[usmckeith]

Our promotion system goes off one basic little requirement: if you have a 2.0 GPA, then you get promoted; a 3.0 is a double promotion. That's it. There are no other requirements at all.:sick:
The only reason i am a c/1st Lt is because the instructors told me (face-to-face) how "set apart I am from the other cadets." Meanwhile, my fellow juniors are being quickly caught by the sohomores. We have a few c/MSgt and c/SMSgt sophomores as well, which i find to be ridiculous, as none of them are near that in reality. In addition, we have way to many officers than even allowed, according to our cadet handbook. We're only supposed to have 8 officers; we currently have around 14.

As far as our Chain of Command goes, it is basic in terms of how things are set up. It goes like this:

Cadet Board
Group Commander
Deputy Group Commander
c/CCMSgt
Mission Support Squadron Cmdr._Group Operations Squadron Cmdr.

Mission Support Squadron
Squadron Commander
Deputy Squadron Commander
Superintendent
Adminstration and Personnel Flight Cmdr.
-NCOIC Administration
-NCOIC Personnel
Logistics Flight Cmdr.
Communications Flight Cmdr.
-NCOIC Communications
-Historian

Group Operations Squadron
Squadron Commander
Deputy Squadron Commander
Superintendent
-A-Flight Cmdr
-B-Flight Cmdr
-C-Flight Cmdr
-D-Flight Cmdr
-E-Flight Cmdr

Now, I'm not even sure if we even qualify to be a group. I think our whole Corps is technically the size of a regular squadron (we have 41 cadets). That's just what it says on the chart.

[TruBlu]

AFJROTC HQ does not mandate a certain size structure for the amount of personnel, although they do recommend certain numbers. For corps of 250 or more cadets, it is recommended that they be in a Wing design. 250 or less should be a Group. Corps with even less (specified at 175 cadets or fewer) could operate as a Squadron or even a Flight. With a number like 42, you should be a Squadron. I'd be happy to talk with you about how to become one and set one up effectively if you would like. I can also help you out with a promotion system, although it is my weaker subject seeing as though I am currently establishing one myself, but I believe the concept is good. If you are interested, we can talk right over this thread, through email, PMs, whatever, but I'm usually around.

[usmckeith]

I'd prefer over the thread, so anyone else with this problem can find help as well.

[TruBlu]

OK, lets talk structure first (and anyone else please feel free to jump in also and give your opinions). Your corps is a Group now but sits at a Squadron size in terms of personnel. You need to scale down, but you don't want to lose all of your staff positions and leadership roles. Before I recommend any structure, I need to know all of your current positions (provide a brief description of each), how your Group, Squadrons, and Flights are structured down to the most basic airman, and what you and your instructors deem required to the operation of the corps. Take your time with it and make sure not to leave anything off. Once that is provided, I will examine it, scale it, and produce one or two structures that I believe will suit your wants/needs.

[waitingforasoldier]

Don’t worry your unit is not the only one. We also have 40 some odd cadets. If we don’t do some kicking butt to get coming in freshman, we mite not have a unit next year, plus next year is my last year, and I really want C/Col. next year. I'm trying my hardest to kick start senior staff into gear, but there all guys and they are very harded headed.

[TruBlu]

Over the past few years JROTC of all branches, states, cities, etc., have experienced a drop in enrollment. One of the primary reasons is the fact that we have troops deployed in places we may or may not need to be, and with that many students and parents of students don't want to be associated with the military or even cadet organizations because of our 'affiliation.' One thing we as cadets need to do is make sure people no that we don't incur service or claim a military status. If we do that, maybe, just maybe, can we save a few more corps every year from being shut down.

[Justify]

My unit is having a lot of problems this year. We've been through five instructors in the past three year. And this year is the worse so far. Our ASI keeps changing everything all of our competition teams do, so they're never stuck on one thing (and as the unarmed commander, the previous armed commander, certified member of both competition and regular Color Guard and the overall drill team commander, it's a lot to keep up with!). At the beginningn of the year, we had nearly two hundred cadets. Now, we're down to about 130, most of those having dropped were upperclassmen who couldn't stand the instructors. All of our problems lie in the instructors at my unit. Does anybody know how to report instructors to an Area Administrator if they're not doing they're job right?

[TruBlu]

Before I do any of that, I would do some research if I were you, that is reading AFJROTC INSTRUCTION 36-2004, Instructor Management. What were you thinking of doing, calling a hot-line and saying that the instructors mess with the drill team too much? Read up and report back here; we should be able to help you out if indeed there are discrepancies.

http://www.au.af.mil/msd/pubs/afoatsi/AFJROTCI36-2004.pdf

[TruBlu]

No, it's more than just screwing with the drill teams. The ASI openly displays favoritism, cusses in class, screws wityh the unit funding, lies to both the parents booster club and the administration at the school. In addition, he does not secure the storage area with all of our equipment (uniformas, flags, sabers, rifles, etc). Also, the ASI fails to give any discilpinary action to the caest that do not wear their uniform, ever. I don't know if this seems like a big deal to anybody else, but if you dont' wear yoru uniform as a part of the curriculum, then you should be kicked out and given an F. No exceptions.

Well are any of those actually infractions as per the document I provided for you? I'm not saying that none of them aren't, but you need to be able to formulate a real case if you are going to try to prosecute anyone here. Let's see what you can come up with.

[Remoah]

Currently my unit (indipendent) is simply going to the sticks. 3 years ago we had 65 attending each night. Now we'd be lucky to pull 30.

However. we've been getting new members in by running our recruit training (for new entrants) like this (each parade night is once a weeek, for 2.5hrs.)

NIGHT ONE
Period 1: Drill (because they need to learn it)
Period 2: Either continue drill, or classroom lessons
Period 3: Class lessons or practical lessons

NIGHT TWO
Period 1: Practical Exercises
Period 2: Practical Exercises
Period 3: Drill or Classroom Lessons

NIGHT THREE
Period 1: Drill
Period 2: Continue drill, or class lessons
Period 3: Class Lessons or Practical Activity.

Back to night 1.

Run it like that, so every 2 weeks you do something 'interesting' compared to drill or the like. Last time i ran it, we did Contact drills and response to an attack, and subsequent counter-attacks, which sounded like alot but for the 25 odd kids who rocked up to have a look they enjoyed every second of it. And they know they'll get to do it again.

Just make sure you run something practical. If that means they rock up to parade in BDU/ACU/DPCU/Whatever then so be it.

[TruBlu]

AFJROTC is not run on a night-to-night basis, much less JROTC in general. JROTC is a secondary school program/class where the instructors are teachers that teach during school hours on a set curriculum. What program are you affiliated with?

Also, there is no combat training in AFJROTC. Practical training could include things like flight simulation (or actual flight), rocketry, making paper airplanes (seriously), and the like.

[Psybadek]

AFJROTC is not run on a night-to-night basis, much less JROTC in general. JROTC is a secondary school program/class where the instructors are teachers that teach during school hours on a set curriculum. What program are you affiliated with?

Also, there is no combat training in AFJROTC. Practical training could include things like flight simulation (or actual flight), rocketry, making paper airplanes (seriously), and the like.

You're right, but to my knowledge there isn't combat training in ANY JROTC. If we learned ANYTHING about combat it was in Navy History, which I would presume you would learn about Air Force history.

[Billyd]

Keep in mind that not every cadet program in the world, or even this country for that matter, is for high school aged persons. Our friend from down under is likely a member of a program similar to our service academies or ROTC that prepare individuals for service.

[Psybadek]

That's a good point, I didn't even notice he was from Australia

[Remoah]

Admittedly i am a little unfamiliar with JROTC.
Will have to read up on that.

The Australian Defence Force Cadets (ADFC) runs programms for 'youths' who have an interest in military-styled training. Cadets is non-compuslary, and heavily subsidised (ie: i pay something like $150 a year AT MOST, including 2x 2 week courses, 4x weekend bivs and all training nights).

ADF Cadets learn as much as is allowed by legislation to do with military training. Our command structure however only has one officer rank, which is just above Warrant Officer, however that rank can be held by platoon commanders, company commanders, and anyone who requires specialised officer rank.
The highest other rank is Warrant Officer Class-1, or RSM.

By combat training i mean things like: Camouflage+Concealment, Stealth Movement, Patrolling, Tracking, offensive actions, defensive actions, reconnicance and intelligence patrols (the most fun).
However, these are not conducted with firearms or even taggers, nor simulation rifles/blankfires. Which is crap, but gov't legislation says we're not allowed to train in that way.

ADFC Units run generally once per week, most RAAF (Royal Australian Air Force) units run wednesdays, AAC (Australian Army Cadets) run Thursdays, and RAN (Royal Australain Navy) run on Friday Nights.
Some units however don't do this, but most in my state adhere to this structure.

AAFC and AAC units often have a similar program, where AAFC cadets learn alot of land-warfare stuff (as even for Regular serving RAAF pilots there is little flight time available as it is). Last i heard of an AAFC unit flying was some 3 years ago, and parachuting over 8 years ago!
However, AAFC units include flight related training into thier programme. Though not much as i'm aware of. Currently the nearest AAFC Unit is basically just Army Cadets who parade in blue uniforms when they don't have field training.

Navy Cadets are the only distinctly different units. Their training is alot less 'hands on' from what i've heard. We rocked up to a biv we hosted at a scout park, and the junior scouts were doing more field work than the navy 'Survival Biv' kids.

Of course, walking into our opposing platoons camp in borrowed Navy uniforms was alot of fun.

Perhaps, if allowed, run Combat training at your JROTC, i think the cadets there would love it, that is if you are allowed. Look for the 'Manual of Land Warfare' on google. It's basically an australian infantrymans handbook and it's floating around alot from what i've heard (i've got copies so i've never looked).

But it looks like we're running two totally different ships...

[CAPSmith]

Currently my unit (indipendent) is simply going to the sticks. 3 years ago we had 65 attending each night. Now we'd be lucky to pull 30.

However. we've been getting new members in by running our recruit training (for new entrants) like this (each parade night is once a weeek, for 2.5hrs.)

NIGHT ONE
Period 1: Drill (because they need to learn it)
Period 2: Either continue drill, or classroom lessons
Period 3: Class lessons or practical lessons

NIGHT TWO
Period 1: Practical Exercises
Period 2: Practical Exercises
Period 3: Drill or Classroom Lessons

NIGHT THREE
Period 1: Drill
Period 2: Continue drill, or class lessons
Period 3: Class Lessons or Practical Activity.

Back to night 1.

Run it like that, so every 2 weeks you do something 'interesting' compared to drill or the like. Last time i ran it, we did Contact drills and response to an attack, and subsequent counter-attacks, which sounded like alot but for the 25 odd kids who rocked up to have a look they enjoyed every second of it. And they know they'll get to do it again.

Just make sure you run something practical. If that means they rock up to parade in BDU/ACU/DPCU/Whatever then so be it.

This program sounds similar to either Civil Air Patrol [CAP] or American Cadet Alliance [ACA]. CAP units do many of the things listed above weekly and have bivouacs, training encampments, etc.

[TruBlu]

It sounds very interesting Remoah, but yes, two completely different ships. As all JROTC cadets wish, I would like to participate in combat-oriented activities, but for the JROTC, the closest we get is AJROTC's Raiders, and that's primarily physical fitness. The primary reason we don't have these training styles is because we are school run and only affiliated with the military, as opposed to being run by the military and only affiliated with the school.

[Remoah]

That actually helps to explain it.

Perhaps put it to your OC that you could run some combat training, as an extra-curricular activity, if allowed. Or is it that you are specifically not allowed to do so.

[TruBlu]

Or is it that you are specifically not allowed to do so.

Correct, we are not allowed. Personally, I think it is because of the operation by a school system and also the idea of JROTC not being a recruiting tool of the military.

[Remoah]

Well not really
Our cadet system has a decent focus on combat training. Technically, we're not allowed to conduct too much aggressive training. However "night movement" can become night-fighting drill very quickly. As can reconnicance becoming aggressive patrolling.

But being an indipendent unit run by volunteer (basically) officers we don't have to answer to a headmaster/principal, only our company commander and the battalion CO.
Even then, our company commander doesnt look at the training program, officers keep out of our way as much as they possibly can here.

Anyhow, that is a bummer. However i'm fairly sure it's a good Military recruiting tool. Something like 50-70% of australian cadets seriously consider and attend recruitment seminars. With something like 40% then going on to some form of military career.
Not bad when there's 10,000 of us kicking around at any one time.

[TruBlu]

It is a good recruiting tool, although it officially has no objective for recruiting. It was started with AJROTC (Army Junior Reserve Officer Training Corps) in NYC as a public school class/program to help an area that was unstable by instructing students in awareness, discipline, and leadership. That is what we still focus on today, as well as our service's particular interests of study and physical training. It is too bad that we can't conduct any form of combat training, unless you include match shooting in that (many units do not have them) category of training. But once again, school run with military oversight means no combat drills; we are students before anything else in JROTC.

[C/Msgt.wraith]

It is too bad that we can't conduct any form of combat training, unless you include match shooting in that (many units do not have them) category of training.


I thought that if your unit had a team for competition shooting that it couldn't be directly associated with JROTC.

[DoubleHelix]

I thought that if your unit had a team for competition shooting that it couldn't be directly associated with JROTC.

I don't believe you can have it as part of the curriculum. A lot of units don't have them, AFJROTC is usually the chief culprit, but they are in existence, and I do believe affiliated.

[C/Msgt.wraith]

I don't see the point of it really other than for pure sport. Firing a real weapon is so much different than a air rifle (which is what i assume they use for comp.) so i wouldn't consider very helpful in learning how to fire a rifle.

[TruBlu]

It's a team and extra-curricular activity, not co-curricular activity. All JROTC units with shooting teams have teams that are directly affiliated with the unit, with the instructor as the coach of the team. As DoubleHelix said, AFJROTC has very few units. Back in 2006 or 2007, I believe, only 30 AFJROTC schools in the nation were chosen to have match shooting teams. Now in 2009, there are a few more, but when compared to the AJROTC or NJROTC, it's not a whole lot.

I don't see the point of it really other than for pure sport. Firing a real weapon is so much different than a air rifle (which is what i assume they use for comp.) so i wouldn't consider very helpful in learning how to fire a rifle.

It is pure sport. They use small bore air rifles (.177 match pellets). It's really fun to do, especially the HPA, Co2, or PCP systems.

[C/Msgt.wraith]

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great idea but you have to think about what people against it would say. something like "well you're handing a weapon to a high school kid" or some crap like that.

[TruBlu]

Well the weapons would be handled in a secure area, and stored in an even more secure area. I don't know the regs on storing operable weapons in a school but I know that for our inert M-1 Garands that we use for drill have to be locked down to the max. We have to have a one inch steel cable looped through all the trigger guards and locked by key. Then they need to be stored in a locker or cabinet bolted to the ground or wall. That locker or cabinet needs to be locked by another key. Then it has to be in a secure room with another lock. Basically, you need to pass three locks to even access the rifles, and again, I'm not so sure about ones that can discharge a round.

[C/Msgt.wraith]

I'd say keep the Firing Mechanism Separate from the weapon itself and keep both in different locations under lock and key.

[TruBlu]

I'd say keep the Firing Mechanism Separate from the weapon itself and keep both in different locations under lock and key.

And risk damage to the weapons because of daily field stripping by amateurs at best? I'd just store them like I would the inert weapons with restricted access to only the instructors and designated range master. Also keep the weapons on the range site to reduce transportation of them.

[C/Msgt.wraith]

well then why not have the range master disassemble all of the weapons? it's not that hard. it took you what, 3 minutes to disassemble a Garand? which is like 5 times harder than an air rifle.

[DoubleHelix]

If they are under very secure lock and key (good solid gun cabinets and such) then there should be no need to disassemble them every time you store them.

That really seems unnecessary.

[TruBlu]

Agreed Double Helix. Plus no matter who disassembles a weapon, it's still a disassembly and leaves room for error. Keep it secure to your parent service and school's requirements and they will be more than adequately protected.

[C/Msgt.wraith]

I was talking to a friend of mine who is in another AFJROTC unit and he said they didnt have the weapons stowed correctly when the Air Force came to inspect. He also said that one of their instructors may get fired for it.

[TruBlu]

It's a very serious issue if they aren't. Ours will be inspected today at either 1000 or 1100. I think I've met the requirements for our locker.

[StormCrow]

With only 41 cadets on hand at the moment, you should drop the "Group" Unit structure entirely and start thinking of things in a Squadron structure, you will not have the man power or Cadet Officers to sustain a Group at the moment. It will make things easier on you that way. If you have questions about structuring a Squadron PM me and I will help you out with that.

Your main priority is to recruit as many cadets as you can. When your current cadets see that you have a steady flow of upcoming cadets, morale will raise itself. Then you need to set yourself, one goal, and you need to set up a way that cadets can engage themselves, via clubs, Drill Team, Model Rocketry and Aircraft clubs etc. After that is set in writing and approved by your SASI, THEN you can upgrade yourself to a group. Also with a large flow of new cadets, that means you need a steady training curriculum. Gather together your most trusted peers, that you think will make good Flight Commanders and start discussing what needs to happen and in what order, as well as what time frame, because you don't have all year to train AS-1's.

Storm

[DoubleHelix]

It's a very serious issue if they aren't. Ours will be inspected today at either 1000 or 1100. I think I've met the requirements for our locker.

How'd this go Tru? I'm assuming since there was no follow up post you must have met the requirements.

[TruBlu]

How'd this go Tru? I'm assuming since there was no follow up post you must have met the requirements.

Yeah we met it. The issue was that the Air Force is getting all their logs together on demilitarized weapons (all M1s right now) because there will probably be, in the near future, a re-call and replacement of them with specialized drill rifles.

[Stryfe]

Yeah we met it. The issue was that the Air Force is getting all their logs together on demilitarized weapons (all M1s right now) because there will probably be, in the near future, a re-call and replacement of them with specialized drill rifles.

Quick note on the Daisy's you'll be getting...unless you're completely in love with them I suggest saving up the 200$ and get a Demil'd 03'. I did and can't go back to spinning Daisys..

Just thought I'd throw that in ;)

[TruBlu]

Quick note on the Daisy's you'll be getting...unless you're completely in love with them I suggest saving up the 200$ and get a Demil'd 03'. I did and can't go back to spinning Daisys..

Just thought I'd throw that in ;)

I've handled the weapons, and they are more than adequate for our regulation drill team with an operable bolt assembly, and our exhibition group (a mere 3 cadets) have displayed high interest in the switch from the Garand to the Daisy replicas. The Daisy rifle is built for exhibition drill, to withstand punishment greater than that of any demilitarized rifle. For my unit, this is the best course of action if the recall is indeed going to happen. Ponying up an extra $200 for a 'proper' weapon is hardly a matter.

[Stryfe]

Yup, just posting my thoughts, don't mean to derail the topic or anything. Feel free to PM me if you have any other thoughts about that though.