A Fresh Start Here and There

[TruBlu]

I figured this would be a good time to post about this topic that I would like to share with the community. Like the Grunt Forum, my corps has undergone a fresh start. As a disclaimer, anything I say is subject to being refuted by members here and I understand that. When I say things like "as they do it in the Air Force" and stuff like that, I only base that off of what my SASI has instructed, and I do not claim a thorough knowledge of military organizational structure and operation. I say this because I would not like to step on anyone's toes through this process. With that said, I think I can begin.

My unit has undergone a "fresh start" of sorts. We have wiped the slate clean and built our unit from the ground up in hopes of leaving behind what our unit had become. What our unit had become was an over inflated, officer heavy, and disorganized corps. At the end of last year (school year 2007-2008), at least 50% of our corps was officers and only about 100 to 120 cadets enrolled each semester (only 60 or so active at one time). Our organization was horrible and officership was just an excuse for not dealing with certain problems.

I realized what was happening at the end of my Freshman year (school year 2006-2007). As I was only a Freshman, I had no pull with any upperclassman, and would be criticized to no end for even bringing up the topic with them. I decided that I would research on my own and figure out a solution to the problem that was forming right in front of us. At the beginning of my Sophomore year, I had the base for my idea: a unit downsizing. To test my theory, I went to work on our drill team as the commander. Our drill team was terrible, I mean we didn't win anything, and the problem lied within our small numbers and thought that we could still compete in everything. I downsized the competitions that we competed in, to only squad size and smaller (we only had 7 to 10 cadets on the team), and we started to place in those, not first in everything like some movie, but we were bringing home some trophies.

Second semester that year I formed the plan, I would move my unit from a disorganized cadet group to an efficient cadet squadron. I would use the same method that I used with the drill team. After researching AF squadron structures and AFJROTC structures, I formulated an organizational structure that would reduce our officer corps to only about 12 cadets and raising our enlisted corps to about 50 or 60 strong (just depends on how many cadets we have, but the 12 cadet officers would be constant). We would have a Squadron CC, with an XO and 1stSgt. assisting him/her. Directly under the Squadron CC is the Squadron Operations Officer (basically the deputy only with the AF operational squadron name of Operations Officer). Under the Squadron Operations Officer are four staff members (Current Operations, Logistics, Personnel, and Drill Team CC) and the five Flight CCs. Cadets would then file under the Flight CCs as the Flight Sgt., Element Leaders, and Airmen in those elements.

This new structure provided us a more AF style of operations, that is to say we work in parallel with each other. IE: A Flight CC will go directly to the Logistics Officer about uniform issues rather than moving from commander to commander and taking much more time than necessary.

After gaining support from the next commander in line (this years Squadron CC), we approached our SASI, who agreed 100%, and we went to work. This process was not clear cut and in some people's opinion a little ruthless. We reverted everyone's rank to their permanent AFJROTC rank and then assigned cadets by their particular skill sets. Some cadets took major hits on rank, especially the commander who went from a c/Lt.Col. to a c/Capt. in one swift move and many officers became airmen or NCOs again.

Now, everyone has jumped on board. It took some fierce debates and explanations, but everyone understands now what we have done and our unit is now operating 100% better. This isn't saying that we are perfect. Far from it. We have many problems that we must still over come, but I think this was step one.

Anyways, I would like to know what your opinion is on this, especially all you current duty and retired military guys. Not saying that I don't want to hear from other cadets either, I love talking about this type of stuff. If I didn't cover something, or something seems hazy, just ask and I'll gladly clarify. Also if anyone wants to actually SEE what this all looks like, just PM me and I can send you a copy of an org chart (no names of course) to take a look at.

Chart is uploaded in a zipped file!
Just a heads up about the chart, yes the sides are cut off a little, but its just two elements that you can tell by looking at the other flights. Its also the most basic form of the Organizational chart. Of course not every flight looks exactly like that, but that's our minimum layout. I think that covers it, oh the ranks. I displayed the max cadet rank for each position their for your convenience.

[AirForceAlways]

I'd actually be quite interested in seeing that chart. You can PM it to me if possible, but if email works better, then I'll PM you my email address. Great work, by the way, seems like you did your research beforehand on this one. Quite a bit of what you did sounds like what we did in our unit last year, and this year as well, and so far it's working pretty well, in addition with our new ASI. One thing I would recommend looking out for though is that you should try to avoid delegating too much power to one cadet. We had that happen last year and it's still happening this year, but we're in the process of fixing that. Just try to remember that you do have 12 officers, and despite particular skills or areas they might be suited to, you're going to want to make sure you delegate power and responsibility evenly, otherwise you're going to end up with a lopsided command element.

[Billyd]

I would be insterested in seeing it as well. You can upload a variety of files here. Just attach when using the advanced editor and not the quick reply.

[C.A.P. Flight Officer]

WOW.....I wish you can come to my AFJROTC Unit. Our cadet staff consists of people who are lazy and don't want to do anything. :marine: The problem is that when the staff officers don't do their job we cant find a replacement, because to find a replacement we have to skip over most of the juniors to the freshmen and sophmores because the juniors are also lazy.

Any Suggestions?:mp::blueberet:

P.S.
Sorry about the spelling if I am wrong. What is your rank ? Just asking.

[TruBlu]

Thanks for taking an interest in this guys, I really appreciate it. I need to get a clean copy of the organizational chart, I kind of saved over my original (I know a very dumb move but...) so I'll get one up here as quickly as possible, probably tommorow afternoon. I need to figure out a way to have the file size small enough also, I used Microsoft Visio, and my files are big big. But I'll have it all figured out and posted soon.

[TruBlu]

Posting it as we speak, but its a big file, and I'm not sure if it will accept its size. But we will soon find out. But just keep your eyes peeled, and I'll send out a PM to everyone that posted here if it worked or not, and I'm sure I'll be able to get it to anyone that wants it through emails or PMs or something.

[flyBoy2010]

The chart looks great! It's similar to my own units. Can't wait to see the org chart!

[TruBlu]

The chart looks great! It's similar to my own units. Can't wait to see the org chart!

That is the org chart LOL... What else do you want to see, did you have something else in mind?

[Airbourne Infantry]

WOW.....I wish you can come to my AFJROTC Unit. Our cadet staff consists of people who are lazy and don't want to do anything. :marine: The problem is that when the staff officers don't do their job we cant find a replacement, because to find a replacement we have to skip over most of the juniors to the freshmen and sophmores because the juniors are also lazy.

Any Suggestions?:mp::blueberet:

P.S.
Sorry about the spelling if I am wrong. What is your rank ? Just asking.

TruBlu had the same problems. But he formed a plan and took the initiative to get it going. If your officers aren't doing their jobs, then fire them. Simple as that, demote them to their permanent enlisted rank and replace them with someone who actually can get the job done. If you've gotten to the point to where you're desperate to find someone to do an officer's job, then you can't be picky about who you pick. Even if they're a Freshman. That's what happened to my unit last year, we had a bunch of Officers constantly failing at their jobs and they were replaced with someone who could perform: Freshmen Cadets. Granted they weren't Officers, but they still got the job done.

[TruBlu]

TruBlu had the same problems. But he formed a plan and took the initiative to get it going. If your officers aren't doing their jobs, then fire them. Simple as that, demote them to their permanent enlisted rank and replace them with someone who actually can get the job done. If you've gotten to the point to where you're desperate to find someone to do an officer's job, then you can't be picky about who you pick. Even if they're a Freshman. That's what happened to my unit last year, we had a bunch of Officers constantly failing at their jobs and they were replaced with someone who could perform: Freshmen Cadets. Granted they weren't Officers, but they still got the job done.

When taking drastic measures like firing cadets from positions, you need to have a plan and know exactly what you are doing. The repercussions of it may come back to hit you when you most need things to work. Removing an officer of their position and reverting them to their permanent rank is a good move IF they are not performing to the capacity that their job mandates them to have. Replacing said officer with a freshman can be a very bad idea, and should only be last resort (in my opinion, having multiple staff officers that do THEIR jobs split up the work of that one position would be better). Try to use your upperclassmen first. Then the sophomores as they have had a year and should know the basics. And if you do place freshman into certain positions, don't change their ranks because of it, you could inadvertently cause imbalances within the corps rank structure and even disrupt it to some extent.

Basically what I'm saying is this: Know what you want, what you need, and who you have before you make any decision. Also, collaborate with your unit commander (if you aren't it yourself) and find the best plan of action. If he/she doesn't agree with you, but you know something has to be done about it, SKIP HIM and head to the SASI. I know that's not proper military protocol, but neither is staff officers that need to be replaced by freshman. Your SASI should see your point as long as you provide evidence and a strong case. But what ever you do, don't make it a point against your commander, and don't slander him/her in any way. Just go about what you need to do to fix things.

[TruBlu]

That looks more like my units formation chart.
Our org chart is here -removed the URL-
Click on Annex C.

Its the same thing really, just mine has the operational flights on it. And no we don't have all those positions. Each position on the org chart that I uploaded is what we have. Your org chart and ours is different in the way that you are just showing the support side and I'm showing the operational, which just so happens to include support because there's only one cadet officer and cadet NCO for each support role (current ops, personnel, logistics, and drill team).

Oh and before you catch flak, I would remove a link to your unit. I do believe it violates the cadet protection policy that's established here. Next time just email the link to someone so its not associated with Grunt's forum.

[flyBoy2010]

Thanks for the tip.
We have two seperate charts. One is an org chart with all of the staff positions on it and the other is a diagram of how we form up in parades. The second is basically an extension off of the Operatinos group on the org chart.

[TruBlu]

OK I see what you are saying now. When you said formation chart I didn't know what to think. I suppose that would be how we would set ours up also for formations, but we don't do a pass in review or anything like that anymore. That's something I'm also working on getting back.

No problem either, just watching each others' backs right?

[C.A.P. Flight Officer]

Nice chart TruBlu. Can you give me some ideas on some unit goals? blueberet: :mp:

[TruBlu]

Nice chart TruBlu. Can you give me some ideas on some unit goals? blueberet: :mp:

As for unit goals, every unit has them from HQ officially (some from last year off the top of my head: only 5%, or less, of the corps not in uniform on designated 'uniform day,' increase extracurricular activity participation to some odd % of the corps, etc.). But, I and other cadets within my corps, mainly the commander and some staff members that I collaborate with, have set some goals personally to accomplish for our corps. Some ideas are:

-Maintaining the cadet officer to cadet enlisted ratio of 1:4 (USAF).
-Having an established and organized structure, that every cadet understands and follows.
-Establishing a set of unit regulations, forms, and manuals, that doesn't contradict the standards and procedures that HQ sets (you wouldn't believe the kind of regulations my unit had when I came in, THEY HAD TO GO!!!).
-Establishing an effective inter-cadet disciplinary system for problems that instructors may not need or want to be alerted about.
-Extending the unit's recruiting area, and be more proactive about it.

Those are some off the top of my head, and are very basic, but are necessary for the proper operation of a cadet corps. Take a look at regulations that you unit has, if you don't have any, push for a way to develop them (one way could be setting up a committee of 5 or so cadets of varying AS years that could right up regulations and together dismiss ideas or support them, a collaborative effort is always better than a singular one). If there is no disciplinary system, or it doesn't make sense or isn't effective, take the same approach. Actually you could take that same approach for any of your corps' problems!

[C.A.P. Flight Officer]

Thanks TruBlu............. I am the recruitment officer for my unit, I go over to the middle school, as you know, and hand out flyers, brochures, and present a powerpoint. Where else do you mean when you say extend my recruiting area? :mp:

[TruBlu]

Thanks TruBlu............. I am the recruitment officer for my unit, I go over to the middle school, as you know, and hand out flyers, brochures, and present a powerpoint. Where else do you mean when you say extend my recruiting area? :mp:

When I say that I mean that you should try to cover more area physically and broaden your recruiting scope. Try to get to all the middle schools in your school's zone (really focus on the schools that send the largest populations). Also try to get out into the community and make people see you. Try involving the unit in local events (help them with anything really) to spread the word about JROTC. Things like these give you win-win situations, you have community service projects underway while you spread your recruitment efforts.

[C.A.P. Flight Officer]

Thanks TruBlu........Since I am the Finance officer I also have to do fundraisers for the unit.
Our fundraisers include:
- Candle Sale
- Ushering at the football games
- Bowling Tournamnet

Any more ideas? :mp:

[flyBoy2010]

We have several different fundraisers throughout the year, including:

Amish Jam and Jerky Sales
Car Washes
School Wristbands

The jam and jerky is great because the sales go 60/40 to the corps.
Last year we made over 600 dollars with only 12 or 13 people actually selling. If we could get half or our corps to sell, we could make $3000 dollars easy.

[MP_Girl]

Thanks TruBlu........Since I am the Finance officer I also have to do fundraisers for the unit.
Our fundraisers include:
- Candle Sale
- Ushering at the football games
- Bowling Tournamnet

Any more ideas? :mp:

I have a few fund raising ideas, but I'm not in JROTC so not sure what I can do as far as input goes. I do several fund raisers for police explorers.

[C.A.P. Flight Officer]

We have several different fundraisers throughout the year, including:

Amish Jam and Jerky Sales
Car Washes
School Wristbands

The jam and jerky is great because the sales go 60/40 to the corps.
Last year we made over 600 dollars with only 12 or 13 people actually selling. If we could get half or our corps to sell, we could make $3000 dollars easy.

Where did you get your supplies from, and how much? How much did you sale for? :mp:

[flyBoy2010]

It was set up through the parents of one of the cadets, so I'm not sure about the specifics, but it was a company called Das Jam Shoppe. Being Amish they don't have a web site but here is a link to a website with their phone number on it:http://www.manta.com/coms2/dnbcompany_yrsfgt
I would suggest calling and asking about fundraisers.

For car washes Walmart will match anything you make.

[TruBlu]

To be quite honest, I don't have many money raising ideas. My unit is far from perfect, we are under a massive reconstruction, and efforts are being pushed in all departments. I've now picked up a few more ideas for fund raisers and stuff like that now from you guys posting.

My "area of expertise," if I may, is corps structure and everything that drives it. I am not working alone in my unit either, so there are other people that are handling the money and our recruitment. I just happen to take part in a large part of it.

[StormCrow]

TruBlu,

Man...you remind me a lot of me in my hard chargin' Cadet days...talking on the unit and getting all the criticism. I admire that in a Cadet. Any young person that knows they should make a change and does is a force to be reckoned with. Their is a prayer regarding people that want to make a change if anyone would like to here it.

Storm

[TruBlu]

Indeed StormCrow, pray away. I don't see you posting a prayer as pushing your religion on anyone around. And I'm sure than no one else will as it is all in good nature.

[StormCrow]

It goes like this:

"God grant me the serenity to accept the things that I cannot change; the Courage to change the things I can; and the Knowledge to know the difference. Living one day at a time, enjoying one moment at a time; excepting hardship as a way to peace; taking, as did Jesus, this sinful world as it is, not as I would have it; trusting that you will make things right if I surrender to your will so that I maybe reasonably happy in this life and supremely happy with you in the next, Amen."

StormCrow has spoken

[TruBlu]

It goes like this:

"God grant me the serenity to accept the things that I cannot change; the Courage to change the things I can; and the Knowledge to know the difference. Living one day at a time, enjoying one moment at a time; excepting hardship as a way to peace; taking, as did Jesus, this sinful world as it is, not as I would have it; trusting that you will make things right if I surrender to your will so that I maybe reasonably happy in this life and supremely happy with you in the next, Amen."

StormCrow has spoken

Wow, I love it. This is one that I must try to commit to memory. Even if you aren't religious you should be able to see the message that it wants to convey. Job well done, and good good stuff.

[StormCrow]

I cant' take all the credit now. I gotta give it up to God. I mean even though he didn't write that prayer the person who did must have been inspired by him. Things like that help me realize my cause for wearing that cross. I mean earlier today I was talking to someone who said that their friends follow Christ but not the Bible. The Bible says that Christ is the word of God so how can you follow Christ and not the word. A proper Christian is mandated to follow and study the word. Its arguments like those that I as a minister in training get into on a daily basis but that is part of my mandate as an Evangelist. Defend the word of God and bring people to Christ.

*Storm wipes the sweat from his brow*

Okay I think that will so it for my study lesson today. For more on this and other subjects regarding Christianity PM me.

Storm

[TruBlu]

I cant' take all the credit now. I gotta give it up to God. I mean even though he didn't write that prayer the person who did must have been inspired by him. Things like that help me realize my cause for wearing that cross. I mean earlier today I was talking to someone who said that their friends follow Christ but not the Bible. The Bible says that Christ is the word of God so how can you follow Christ and not the word. A proper Christian is mandated to follow and study the word. Its arguments like those that I as a minister in training get into on a daily basis but that is part of my mandate as an Evangelist. Defend the word of God and bring people to Christ.

*Storm wipes the sweat from his brow*

Okay I think that will so it for my study lesson today. For more on this and other subjects regarding Christianity PM me.

Storm

Lol! Anyone else? The thread is still active and I'm still around to focus on this thread's actual topic.

[AFCougar]

Ours is set up like so:

At the Top is the Cadet Group Commander, beside him is the Cadet Training Officer (usually the ex Corp Commander after the 1st Semester) and the Inspector General (during the year of the big inspection), under him is the Deputy Commander, and then the Executive Officer.

Under the Executive Officer, is the Mission Support Squadron Commander and the Operations Squadron Commander.

Under MSSQ (Mission Support Squadron Comander), would be Financial Management, Personnel, Public Affairs, Logistics, and the Team Commanders.

Under OPS (Operations Squadron Commander) are the Flight Commanders.

Under MSSQ and OPS, is the Command Chief Master Sergeant.

If you want, I can explain the responsibilities of the "Top 6 Leadership". But for now, I have to go to bed. :afgarrison:

[TruBlu]

Ours is set up like so:

At the Top is the Cadet Group Commander, beside him is the Cadet Training Officer (usually the ex Corp Commander after the 1st Semester) and the Inspector General (during the year of the big inspection), under him is the Deputy Commander, and then the Executive Officer.

Under the Executive Officer, is the Mission Support Squadron Commander and the Operations Squadron Commander.

Under MSSQ (Mission Support Squadron Comander), would be Financial Management, Personnel, Public Affairs, Logistics, and the Team Commanders.

Under OPS (Operations Squadron Commander) are the Flight Commanders.

Under MSSQ and OPS, is the Command Chief Master Sergeant.

If you want, I can explain the responsibilities of the "Top 6 Leadership". But for now, I have to go to bed. :afgarrison:

That sounds very different from what I've ever seen. If you can, could you get me a file of your structure? Just a simple one like the one I uploaded would suffice. I would like to see how that all works. Just PM it to me.

[TruBlu]

I would also like to see it.

Gonna be file swapping mayhem pretty soon here on Grunt's forum lol. I don't think he will mind though...

[StormCrow]

Download mania 2008,

Tune in for the main event, WinZip, versus E-mail Attachment for the Heavyweight download championship...right here...on grunts military.

Just Kidding,

Storm

[AFCougar]

Yea, I'll make one up for you soon, I need to finish my Public Affairs Work or else it will be my head.

[flyBoy2010]

Yea, I'll make one up for you soon, I need to finish my Public Affairs Work or else it will be my head.

Understandable, finishing the work for your Corps is top priority. We were just interested in seeing how your command structure was set up.

[AFCougar]

Understandable, finishing the work for your Corps is top priority. We were just interested in seeing how your command structure was set up.

Yeah, but it's all good now. I got it done. I just need to figure out how to get the dang thing up on here.

EDIT: Okay, I think I got it.

[flyBoy2010]

Just attach it to a reply on this thread. The attachment icon in the post reply is a paper clip on the top row.

[TruBlu]

Yeah, but it's all good now. I got it done. I just need to figure out how to get the dang thing up on here.

EDIT: Okay, I think I got it.

If I were you, I would try to move some things around. Squadron CCs and the Command Chief Master Sergeant should not be under the Executive Officer. If you were to move your Executive Officer and Command Chief Master Sergeant under the Group CC, but not in the Chain of Command, you would be good to go. I edited what you uploaded and you can look at it.

[flyBoy2010]

I thinkn TrueBlue's chart is a little more like what my group's looks like.
Depending on the size of your group you could make another squadron for logistics.

[StormCrow]

Truthfully,

In a Group Logistics should be its own squadron. What you do is take two cadets from each ops flight and assign one to the supply flight and the other to the logistics flight. The supply flight handles issuing gear and things to the cadets, cleaning the supply room, and putting in cadet request forms for equipment. The Logistics Flight, handles taking inventory, ordering equipment, budgeting, and receiving new inventory.

Storm

[C/Major Black]

I have a few fund raising ideas, but I'm not in JROTC so not sure what I can do as far as input goes. I do several fund raisers for police explorers.


I'm a police explorer also. We could use some fund raising ideas.

My Squadron sells candy, does a semi monthly car wash, and a talent show; and so far we've raked in good money.

[TruBlu]

Truthfully,

In a Group Logistics should be its own squadron. What you do is take two cadets from each ops flight and assign one to the supply flight and the other to the logistics flight. The supply flight handles issuing gear and things to the cadets, cleaning the supply room, and putting in cadet request forms for equipment. The Logistics Flight, handles taking inventory, ordering equipment, budgeting, and receiving new inventory.

Storm

I like that idea, that sounds pretty good. But, the problem is, in units with very few people, its very hard to get those people. This is one of the things, when you have 120 cadets, making a group is a group that is really bare bones, because you don't want to have your corps top heavy or lopsided. It should be balanced. When creating or adding more squadrons to the mix, you also take away from the other squadron(s). You have to have an understanding as to what you have in terms of manpower and what you can do with it.

[C/Major Black]

Indeed StormCrow, pray away. I don't see you posting a prayer as pushing your religion on anyone around. And I'm sure than no one else will as it is all in good nature.


I agree, we're all christians (majority maybe). It's good to hear a prayer now and again.

[StormCrow]

I like that idea, that sounds pretty good. But, the problem is, in units with very few people, its very hard to get those people. This is one of the things, when you have 120 cadets, making a group is a group that is really bare bones, because you don't want to have your corps top heavy or lopsided. It should be balanced. When creating or adding more squadrons to the mix, you also take away from the other squadron(s). You have to have an understanding as to what you have in terms of manpower and what you can do with it.

Your right about balance...however, like I've said before with the UMD situation...its always flexible. Truly, your not necessarily taking away from the ops squadrons your just forming a unit to better serve their needs and you are still keeping those section specialists in their respective ops flight as a logistic representative for example. They are still there but is is better to have a separate unit for something like logistics and personnel so as to keep things more organized. That way you maintain balance while at the same time creating more opportunity for the cadets to get involved which now adays is something that is hard to do when JROTC is just a class. Honestly, the function of the Ops Flight is, strictly that, academics. So by creating these things but being carefully not to, like you said, get top heavy, you are creating opportunities.

Storm

[TruBlu]

Your right about balance...however, like I've said before with the UMD situation...its always flexible. Truly, your not necessarily taking away from the ops squadrons your just forming a unit to better serve their needs and you are still keeping those section specialists in their respective ops flight as a logistic representative for example. They are still there but is is better to have a separate unit for something like logistics and personnel so as to keep things more organized. That way you maintain balance while at the same time creating more opportunity for the cadets to get involved which now adays is something that is hard to do when JROTC is just a class. Honestly, the function of the Ops Flight is, strictly that, academics. So by creating these things but being carefully not to, like you said, get top heavy, you are creating opportunities.

Storm

Indeed. The argument that I pose is really just a warning, and something that you don't want to have happen. I think that cadets should know a possible outcome of these things if they are not handled correctly.

[StormCrow]

That's why you have instructors...don't be afraid to ask them

Storm

[AFCougar]

If I were you, I would try to move some things around. Squadron CCs and the Command Chief Master Sergeant should not be under the Executive Officer. If you were to move your Executive Officer and Command Chief Master Sergeant under the Group CC, but not in the Chain of Command, you would be good to go. I edited what you uploaded and you can look at it.

On our Leadership Board outside our class room, I think the DCC and XO (I know DCC is, not sure about XO), are beside the Group CC. (I did it after an exhausting day of running errands for JROTC.) Command Chief Master Sergeant, not that it is an un-needed job, it's just it doesn't deserve to be ranked that high, at least at our unit.

On to the post about the Logistics...
We have a Logistics Officer and 1 Assistant. Assistants will increase to 2-3 at our unit during Uniform Fitting, and handing them out and when they need to be turned back in. But our Logistics Officer and his NCO are doing fine with 110 cadets in our Corps.:sleepy:

[StormCrow]

Well,

In all actuality--this is where the UMD does come in handy--the Group Senior Enlisted Advisor (Superintendent, First Sergeant, NCOIC, whatever you wanna call it) should have a base rank of C/Senior Master Sergeant and a ceiling rank of C/Chief Master Sergeant. A Wing Command Chief's rank is pretty much locked in at C/Chief Master Sergeant.

Storm

[TruBlu]

Well,

In all actuality--this is where the UMD does come in handy--the Group Senior Enlisted Advisor (Superintendent, First Sergeant, NCOIC, whatever you wanna call it) should have a base rank of C/Senior Master Sergeant and a ceiling rank of C/Chief Master Sergeant. A Wing Command Chief's rank is pretty much locked in at C/Chief Master Sergeant.

Storm

Agreed, a Command Chief Master Sergeant/First Sergeant is an integral part of any unit at any size or structure. His/her rank is pretty much locked in, after all, he/she isn't called a Command Chief Master Sergeant for nothing you know? If he/she isn't doing much now in your unit, then he/she needs to start getting out there with the other enlisted cadets, because that's what its for (for the most part, but like Storm said, he/she is the go to guy/gal [at least I think Storm said it...]).

[C.A.P. Flight Officer]

So does that mean the the person being called the Command Chief Master Sergeant has to forfiet advancement in his/her rank for like a year or a semester or something like that? I am just curious, my unit does not have one of those either.

[TruBlu]

So does that mean the the person being called the Command Chief Master Sergeant has to forfiet advancement in his/her rank for like a year or a semester or something like that? I am just curious, my unit does not have one of those either.

It's not that they are forfeiting advancement, its that they have nothing else to advance to. They are the highest cadet enlisted grade. I mean, what else is there to advance to, 2ndLt? Nah, I don't think that's it, I mean if they want to go officer then so be it, but I know that a lot of cadets enjoy the enlisted ranks and don't want to become officers, but high ranking NCOs.

And my unit doesn't have one either, we are only an Operational Squadron, so we have a c/1stSgt instead. But his max rank is a c/CMSgt.

[AFCougar]

Agreed, a Command Chief Master Sergeant/First Sergeant is an integral part of any unit at any size or structure. His/her rank is pretty much locked in, after all, he/she isn't called a Command Chief Master Sergeant for nothing you know? If he/she isn't doing much now in your unit, then he/she needs to start getting out there with the other enlisted cadets, because that's what its for (for the most part, but like Storm said, he/she is the go to guy/gal [at least I think Storm said it...]).

I didn't say he wasn't doing stuff, I just said he wasn't doing so much as to earn being 2iC or 3iC...

[TruBlu]

I didn't say he wasn't doing stuff, I just said he wasn't doing so much as to earn being 2iC or 3iC...

Well, technically they aren't supposed to be within the COC. They are really supposed to act as a liaison between the lower enlisted corps to the commander, and to provide assessment and plans of action for the commander.

[devin0116]

How would you recommend going about changing my Corps staff structure and so on...

We have many of the same problems you...well did. first I think that there are too many officers who dont know how to give proper commands and or do their job right. But many of these are friends of mine and if they somehow magically found out that I recommended them they may feel betrayed. Secondly i am only a C/SSgt so its a bit difficult to go around trying to fire officers. Third this year my Group is undergoing major changes in discipline and attitude, so we are doing drill twice as often and trying to change both structure and discipline may be difficult. I like your chart but I may need to change some things to have it fit my school. what do you recommend?

[TruBlu]

First off, I'm glad that this topic has not been forgotten by the large.

With that aside, thank you for voicing your concern about your unit and it's cadets. Here's what I want you to do so I, and possibly other AFJROTC cadets can assist you:

In your next post, describe your unit's organizational structure thoroughly, meaning I want to know what constitutes an element, flight, squadron, group, etc., and how your unit is specifically laid out (ex: 1 group with 1 operational squadron and 1 operational support squadron. The operational squadron has 3 operational flights with 2 elements of 3 cadets each.) Please generalize when you come down to elements, I don't want to know that Second Element in Charlie Flight has 5 cadets and the leader should not actually be in his position.

Also list each cadet position (don't worry about position descriptions, I and the other cadets placing input will know or question what we don't know) and their max rank.

Give a rough estimate (with a margin of error as small as possible) of how many cadets your unit has. Break that number down further to show how many cadet officers and cadet enlisted there are.

Explain generalized problems with your chain of command and cadet performance.

If you can, make a simple organizational chart like the one I have uploaded on the first post (changed a little since then, but I'll leave it be) and upload it so we can actually see whats going on. It does not have to look professional, just readable. With this information, I will be able to take a look at what you have and effectively determine a potential course of action to amend problems.

Last but not least, preview your post before you hit "submit reply." There are quite a few grammatical errors in there. Also, you aren't a c/SSG, that's the AJROTC! You are a c/SSgt, that's proper Air Force abbreviation.

[SlightlyCatholic]

Secondly i am only a C/SSG

Don't ever let your own rank be an obstacle to getting what needs to be done. Any superior worth his shoulderboards has no reason not to listen to a factual and thorough presentation of an idea, no matter the source. Sometimes the best ideas come from the bottom of the chain, and your brain works just as well as those above you. When I was a cadet Chief Petty Officer in charge of a Sea Cadet Division, I always asked for ideas from the lower ranked cadets (as they sometimes saw things I didn't) and providing those ideas shows initiative and effort on your part. Just some advice from a former cadet...

[devin0116]

I will try to remember to copy down the board in the ROTC hallway (Shows positions and cadets holding them) i will try to tell you some of the details i do know, but i am AS-II so i dont know everything about the unit yet.

1.Elements as far as i know are non existant.....
2.Only certain positions which must have a certain rank have a max rank
3.My Flight only has 9 cadets ( all the others have more....)


thanks Tim, i too when i commanded a squad asked what they thought....but unfortunatley most of the officers at my school have their head shoved so far up their a** that the condescend to enlisted ranks

[TruBlu]

I will try to remember to copy down the board in the ROTC hallway (Shows positions and cadets holding them) i will try to tell you some of the details i do know, but i am AS-II so i dont know everything about the unit yet.

1.Elements as far as i know are non existant.....
2.Only certain positions which must have a certain rank have a max rank
3.My Flight only has 9 cadets ( all the others have more....)


thanks Tim, i too when i commanded a squad asked what they thought....but unfortunatley most of the officers at my school have their head shoved so far up their a** that the condescend to enlisted ranks

I won't comment on anything until you have given me everything requested. Take your time with it, it needs to all be accurate. The reason why I won't be commenting just yet is that I need to know more to fully see, comprehend, and digest so I can offer a course of action or idea. Take your time, and find out everything about your unit and its current status. Then come back and post it all up if a clear and concise manner.

[devin0116]

Alright I will see what i can do.

[-BuLL-]

The NCOIC is a very important role. They bridge the gap between officer and enlisted ranks. If the Bn. Cmdr. (I'm an AJROTC C/CSM) wants to make a decision, he/she will usually ask the CSM for their opinion(or if the CSM thinks there is a better way to do something, he/she will tell the BC and the BC will make the call. Just another point of view). Also, during staff meetings, if there is an issue and the BN. staff are discussing something, the CSM is usually there on behalf of the enlistedmen.

[-BuLL-]

Also, the NCOIC is not 3rd in charge or 4th in charge or whatever. The only time a CSM would take over is if there were no officers present. If the BC isnt there, the XO is in charge. Next, would be the S-3,S-1,S-2,S-4,S-5. In my unit, the XO and myself are under the BC. Then the rest of staff fall under the XO. I directly report to my BC but sometimes I do assist the XO if he needs it.

[devin0116]

Im nearly finished with the chart I just need to finalize some things tommorow.(I ran out of time today) hopefully who will have all your information by tommorow.

How do i get files on here?






Officers- Estimated-35 (so I dont forget:D)

[Drill for life]

Thats great to hear man, I am glad to here that you got a fresh start.

[TruBlu]

Im nearly finished with the chart I just need to finalize some things tommorow.(I ran out of time today) hopefully who will have all your information by tommorow.

How do i get files on here?






Officers- Estimated-35 (so I dont forget:D)

As you are composing your post, there is a little paper clip icon next to a smiley face. Hit that and attach the files to the post. They may and probably will be too large. You will need to compress, or zip, the files so that they are fit. If you start to question file formats and all that jazz, well don't. I can probably view and edit whatever you throw at me here so just do what you have to do to get it posted.

And one more time: Have all of the information posted at the same time, in the same post. I don't want to have to go hunting for something that doesn't need to be hunted for. Just provide as much detail and amount as you can, then I can start getting some wheels turning in my head and help you out.

[devin0116]

Ok, first there are no elements in flights. I labeled "Helpers" under Deputy Logistics because thats what we are and are basically trying to earn expirience for next year and have no group staff position. we have two Deputy Logistics and one Ass. Deputy Logistics. there is an estimated 95-100 Cadets, with 35-40 Officers.

[TruBlu]

OK, I'll take a look at it all and post back soon, I need to think on it, but not tonight. I'll have my take on everything before end of business Sunday hopefully. Keep your eyes peeled for it.

[flyBoy2010]

I think I'll leave this one to TruBlu. He's better at that kind of stuff.
My only question is: Why is the Chaplain at the same level as the XO and Command Chief?

[devin0116]

I have no idea I just copied the chart down exactly what it looked like.

[TruBlu]

Don't have anything yet, I've been very busy this weekend. But I also want to know a few things about a few positions. I have a basic idea about most of these, but a couple are unknown to me. Just to clarify exactly what the positions do, and actually do, in your unit, explain these positions please:

Special Adviser
Inspector General
Historian
Education
Special Projects
Civil Eng./Safety
Sports Rep.
Video Engineers
"Helpers"

Everything else is pretty standard across the board when it comes to job description and what they do. Oh, and you guys have a rifle team, like marksmanship?

[devin0116]

Don't have anything yet, I've been very busy this weekend. But I also want to know a few things about a few positions. I have a basic idea about most of these, but a couple are unknown to me. Just to clarify exactly what the positions do, and actually do, in your unit, explain these positions please:

Special Adviser
Inspector General
Historian
Education
Special Projects
Civil Eng./Safety
Sports Rep.
Video Engineers
"Helpers"

Everything else is pretty standard across the board when it comes to job description and what they do. Oh, and you guys have a rifle team, like marksmanship?

Your just as lost as me on some of these but i will try my best.

Special Advisor- We have none appointed, so I have no idea

Inspector General- same as special advisor

Historian- Records the units activities. (makes albums of photos from events, videos etc...)

Special Projects- Arranges blood drives and fundraisers, makes the phone calls and such.

Civil Eng./Safety- No clue.

Sports Rep- We don't function like your typical JROTC Unit, our unit is geared a lot more towards.....fun. Thats why we have discipline problems but thats another story. Instead of PT on Fridays we do sports (Football, Dodgeball, etc...) they choose what we do.

Video Engineers- They mess with the DVD players, Projectors, etc.. basically there are the "tech team" of the Flight (kinda BS positions especially since they get rank.)

"Helpers"- I didn't know what to call the enlisted people that help the Logistics staff (like me) so I just called them helpers, for there is no staff positions for us.

No, Rifle Team as in Drill/Exhibition Rifles.

[TruBlu]

Your just as lost as me on some of these but i will try my best.

Special Advisor- We have none appointed, so I have no idea

Inspector General- same as special advisor

Historian- Records the units activities. (makes albums of photos from events, videos etc...)

Special Projects- Arranges blood drives and fundraisers, makes the phone calls and such.

Civil Eng./Safety- No clue.

Sports Rep- We don't function like your typical JROTC Unit, our unit is geared a lot more towards.....fun. Thats why we have discipline problems but thats another story. Instead of PT on Fridays we do sports (Football, Dodgeball, etc...) they choose what we do.

Video Engineers- They mess with the DVD players, Projectors, etc.. basically there are the "tech team" of the Flight (kinda BS positions especially since they get rank.)

"Helpers"- I didn't know what to call the enlisted people that help the Logistics staff (like me) so I just called them helpers, for there is no staff positions for us.

No, Rifle Team as in Drill/Exhibition Rifles.

A little closer I think. Um, it may take me a little longer, I need to clarify my own knowledge of AJROTC (not too much) and freshen up on it. After that I'll see what I can put up. I won't put a set time on it, but a few days should be plenty (I've got other stuff I'm doing also understandably).

[devin0116]

AJROTC??? Take your time, no rush. Im still thinking on how i will present this and my suggestions to the ASI and SASI.

[TruBlu]

AJROTC??? Take your time, no rush. Im still thinking on how i will present this and my suggestions to the ASI and SASI.

Oh, um, yeah, deepest apologies. It's been a long day, and I was just doing a little research on AJROTC awards for another thread and must have gotten confused. Its been a long day for me... In that case, should have it pretty quickly.

[devin0116]

No worries, I will also try to get the actual job description of the positions in question.

[TruBlu]

No worries, I will also try to get the actual job description of the positions in question.

Oh that would be cool! I will hold back on doing anything if you can get those tomorrow or the day after so we know exactly whats going on here lol.

[devin0116]

Well, I was asking the officers I could, before Homecoming Parade friday (that was chaos) and the ones who listened to me couldnt give me an answer.

[TruBlu]

Well, I was asking the officers I could, before Homecoming Parade friday (that was chaos) and the ones who listened to me couldnt give me an answer.

Your unit should have some regs, if it doesn't you are probably in the same boat I was and still am in (only I'm creating said regs for us in the future). If there aren't any regs, go strait to the source, your group commander or hell, go to the Command Chief Master Sergeant, that's who you as a cadet enlisted should be rolling to if you've got questions or concerns.

[devin0116]

I will see if I can put a memo in his box.

[devin0116]

Unfortunatley I was unable to find the descriptions because my ASI kept jumping on my case for not doing anything (I have not informed him yet because i want to have a gameplan when presenting all this stuff) so he kicked me out of the staff room and back to logistics.I will probably not be able to do it tommorrow because of Veteran's Day Parade.

[TruBlu]

Unfortunatley I was unable to find the descriptions because my ASI kept jumping on my case for not doing anything (I have not informed him yet because i want to have a gameplan when presenting all this stuff) so he kicked me out of the staff room and back to logistics.I will probably not be able to do it tommorrow because of Veteran's Day Parade.

Don't sweat it, just get it to me when you can. That helps me out because I am quite busy this week anyways.

[devin0116]

Ok, I found the Job description folder today (finally) and only had a brief time to overveiw it so I will give you as much as I can.

Special Advisor- Works closely with the ASI and SASI to "advise' them on certain issues pertaining to the upkeep,improvement,personell, etc...of the Corps

Civil Eng./Safety- Works on public works for the community/corps. Makes sure everything is in order at events( basically the construction worker/janitor, because I saw something in there about making sure everything was nice and clean).

Inspector General- Deals with Personell, makes routine inspections of flights, basically the grand master of inspecting things.

[TruBlu]

Ok, I found the Job description folder today (finally) and only had a brief time to overveiw it so I will give you as much as I can.

Special Advisor- Works closely with the ASI and SASI to "advise' them on certain issues pertaining to the upkeep,improvement,personell, etc...of the Corps

Civil Eng./Safety- Works on public works for the community/corps. Makes sure everything is in order at events( basically the construction worker/janitor, because I saw something in there about making sure everything was nice and clean).

Inspector General- Deals with Personell, makes routine inspections of flights, basically the grand master of inspecting things.

OK, well this will have to suffice if this is what you can provide me. Expect something soon, but I've gotten very busy this week so don't hold me to anything right away.

[TruBlu]

Sorry about the long wait, and am sorry to inform you that you will have to wait probably just one more day. I can't mess with it tonight, I've got to get ready for a drill competition in the morning, and lots of stuff to memorize. When I get back from it in the afternoon/early evening tomorrow, I will take a look at it and try my best to get something up here. Thanks for bearing with me.

[TruBlu]

OK Devin 0116, I've got something for you. Thank you for being patient and bearing with me here, but I think you will be pleased. If you searched around a bit on the forum here, you would see that I did something very similar for c/Colonel, and many of my ideas were drawn from there. But on to what you've been waiting for...

When I first looked at your chart I asked myself, "What in the world is going on here?" To me, the sheer amount of staff positions and a lack of work for all of them was first in my mind. Your unit has a suspected 100 cadets or so, with up to 40 officers. That's way too many officers not doing a whole lot. I've cut the officer amount by about half, but have added a few positions in to make up for that.

Lets start from the top and hit each position briefly (note: I color coded the chart for you so its a little easier to tell what is what. The red boxes are your Commander and his/her personal staff; the purple (two shades) are your Operations Squadrons; the blue is your Operations Support Squadron).

-COG/CC: That's the "big cheese," the first in command. He/she deals primarily with the SASI/ASI, and distributes generalized tasks to his/her squadron commanders.

--Assisting the COG/CC are the COG/CD (takes control when the COG/CC is not around), COG/CCE (glorified "paper pusher" of the COG/CC), COG/HC (your religious head), and the COG/CCC (the liaison between the commander and the lower enlisted cadets).

-Directly under the COG/CC are the squadron commanders. There are three commanders: the COS1/CC (commands Operations Squadron 1), the COS2/CC (commands Operations Squadron 2), and the COSS/CC (commands Operations Support Squadron).

--COS/CC: Responsible for his/her squadron like the COG/CC is for the Group. The COS/CC should receive orders from the COG/CC and then distribute them to the individual Flight Commanders in a specifics. The COS/CC has a First Sergeant that is the equivalent to the COG/CCC at the Group level.

--COSS/CC: Responsible for the cadet staff. He/she receives orders from the COG/CC and then distributes specific orders to individual staff officers.

OK, we are going to skip a little bit here, so bear with me:

Under the COS/CC's are the Flight Commanders. Each COS/CC will have three COF/CC's under him/her, for a total of six.

-COF/CC: Responsible for the individual flights. He/she is the first officer in the chain of command and is generally the officer that most enlisted cadets find themselves communicating with on a day to day basis. He/she is aided by a Flight Sergeant, who unlike the First Sergeant, is in the chain of command (like he/she is now for you).

--Element Leaders: You didn't have Elements!!! That is the largest problem that you have now. You can't have a Flight with no Elements, that doesn't make sense... So, you now have Elements, a minimum of two for each Flight with a maximum of four. These elements are comprised solely of airmen and are generally led by a NCO.

OK, skipping again. Back over to staff:

Under the COSS/CC are these guys:

-COSS/DPM: Personnel Flight Commander. He/she is responsible for all of your information, charts, technology, management, etc. He/she has a Flight Sergeant to aid him/her in his/her duties. Also, he/she has a set of Specialists, one from each flight, giving him/her six in total. These guys get to work on small time personnel tasks for their particular flight.

-COSS/LG: Logistics Flight Commander. I noticed you had LG as a Squadron. Nah, I don't think that's needed. Instead, a flight with the same layout of the DPM's. Logistics will handle all of the uniforms, supply, cleaning, etc.

-COSS/PT: Athletics Officer. You had a "Sports Rep" in each flight, and oddly enough, in the chain of command. I've kept the idea of the "sports rep" in a specialist form, the same as DPM and LG. The Athletics officer will handle all PT aspects including the organization of, logging of, and execution of.

-COSS/PA: Public Affairs. You had a "video engineer" in each flight. Once again, the idea is in a specialist form, just as the previous four positions. The PA will handle all public affairs aspects, its pretty self sufficient...

-COSS/OSO: Current Operations Officer. You had no OSO!!! This position is the person that is getting all your field trips, activities, and fundraisers (if you don't wish to have a comptroller) done. You need one...

-COSS/DT: Drill Team Commander. This includes your drill team commander and rifle team commander in your old chart. Just consolidate the two and unofficially separate them at practice if you would like.

-COSS/CG: Color Guard Commander. Yeah...

-COSS/RSV: Reserve Corps Commander. Pretty much the same, just in command of the reserve component.

OK, that about covers all of it. I know it was very brief and not very descriptive, but I don't have all night, and to be honest, most of it comes from the LE1 book. If you open that up to pages 9 through 12, you will see each one of these positions (well most) or one that relates to that position. Go there and use it as a cross reference to the chart.

And if you have any questions at all, ask away. I'm sure there are a few as I didn't go into much detail.

Here's the chart:

[devin0116]

Thats great!!! It will take me a couple of times to read your post to fully understand what the positions do:p but I am overall very impressed and pleased.
Thanks a bunch!!

[TruBlu]

Thats great!!! It will take me a couple of times to read your post to fully understand what the positions do:p but I am overall very impressed and pleased.
Thanks a bunch!!

Understandable, and it's not a problem, really it isn't. I expect a few questions from it, it wasn't as detailed as I would have liked it to have been.

[devin0116]

Okay, I've printed it out and am going to present it to a c/1LT and a long time friend of mine and see what she thinks. Im going to try and gain as much support as possible with the smaller ranking officers and work my way up to the big guys and eventually the SASI and ASI. My friend is in on it and I told her it was open to debate/revision. Hope you don't mind.

Hopefully all goes well.

Best Regards,

devin0116

[TruBlu]

Hope I don't mind? That's the best course of action. Get support from your peers, then commanders, then the instructors. That way you have a good base to build up on. Also, a unit's structure should never be concrete, only the basics of it. What I mean by this is that a commander is going to be adaptive to situations, meaning that things can change depending on a situation. See what she and the others have to say about it.

[devin0116]

Okay, well we looked at it and she thinks its better than the system we have now. She wants Rifle Team to be seperate from Drill Team (since she is the commander of Rifle Team:D) So no biggy there. The Altheltics Flight she didn't really like. I kinda agree, because we do no PT just sports and we decide as a class what to do, so they just carry the equipment. The logistics is a good setup in my opinion, but I don't know if we can trust that many people to not do anything stupid and know how to run things. (especially the AS1's) because we use CIMS which is an inventory program on the computer and there is a certain way to do this. We just got Honor Guard too, so I suppose that could be thrown in there. So the OSO is basically the equivalent to our Special Projects officer?? I should get back to you when school gets back in next week so we can reveiw it more.

Best Regards,
devin0116:marine:

[TruBlu]

My thing with the rifle and drill team is this: your "rifle" team is a an armed drill team, an actual rifle team is a marksmanship team, which you don't have.

When it comes to Logistics and CIMS, the Officer and NCO are the ones working with it, the specialists simply distribute and record, then pass along to the NCO.

Honor Guard? That's the formal name for a drill team man. What is Honor Guard for you guys, Color Guard? 'Cause Color Guard is Color Guard...

And the OSO would most likely be the equivalent to said position.

As for PT, you don't do PT at your school? Just sports? That's not right, that's definitely not how the AFJROTC runs its fitness program. Please elaborate because I may be confused...

[devin0116]

We are not allowed to have marksmanship (does AFJROTC even have regulations for one?)

Honor Guard- It is not on the board(of staff ppositions because we added it this year) but essentially its 'armed' drill with shiny helmets. They now do the football games not the color guard. (we have flag poles behind the field)

No PT. Odd yes, like today (every friday) we play a sport on something of the sort. Today we played soccer. We played flickerball (really fun, if you dont know what it is). We play dodgeball, football, etc.... Some of the officers and our ASI and SASI want to put together some kind of LRC.I suppose the reason is that it's hard for us to find cadets who actually like JROTC, so we do what we can to convince them to take it next year, and that generaly involves it being more fun.

Best Regards,
devin0116 :marine:

[OrienteeringOH]

It was my impression that the E2C program was required - does soccer or football fill the requirement? We have a Cadet Wellness officer who creates a list of excersises every week for the flights to perform on Fridays. It's worked really well thus far, and scores are up.

Just a thought.

[devin0116]

It was my impression that the E2C program was required - does soccer or football fill the requirement? We have a Cadet Wellness officer who creates a list of excersises every week for the flights to perform on Fridays. It's worked really well thus far, and scores are up.

Just a thought.

I have no idea. But, for the most part, the officers with staff positions are not dedicated. So they just ask for a staff position so they can be an officer and act like they are big dogs on campus.

[TruBlu]

We are not allowed to have marksmanship (does AFJROTC even have regulations for one?)

Honor Guard- It is not on the board(of staff ppositions because we added it this year) but essentially its 'armed' drill with shiny helmets. They now do the football games not the color guard. (we have flag poles behind the field)

No PT. Odd yes, like today (every friday) we play a sport on something of the sort. Today we played soccer. We played flickerball (really fun, if you dont know what it is). We play dodgeball, football, etc.... Some of the officers and our ASI and SASI want to put together some kind of LRC.I suppose the reason is that it's hard for us to find cadets who actually like JROTC, so we do what we can to convince them to take it next year, and that generaly involves it being more fun.

Best Regards,
devin0116 :marine:

No, marksmanship teams are not standard or the "norm" for AFJROTC units. This is starting to change. Some units have pursued and attained marksmanship teams under special permission from AFJROTCHQ.

As for Honor Guard, your unit's definition of such is skewed and should be examined more closely as to what you really need to have.

PT, well you guys should have it. But if your unit isn't catching flak from HQ, do what you have to do to get the personnel.

[c/ltdan2192]

If I were you I would probably make the staff a parallel structure under the Sqdrn CC (or possibly a new staff officer) to relieve some stress from the Ops off. I would avoid, however, the formation of a staff operational Sqdrn just because that would make it a group and kind of defeat the original purpose.

[TruBlu]

Ah strait out of our personal discussions I see. That is what we should be and plan to be doing. And by we I suppose I mean you and I eh?